What If Pearl Harbour never happened?

I don't know if this has been done, but I don't recall seeing it.

Basically what if the Japs never attacked Pearl Harbour and restricted their imperialistic aims to china and European colonies only. Thus depriving the US a means of entry into the war.

Would the US of entered eventually? I don't know this one as both sides had strong support for and against joining.

If they didn't join would the outcome have changed? I say yes, in that the Brits would have withered and died without the need for invation and Overlord, Torch and the Italian campaigns were organised and more importantly funded by the US. I doubt that the Brits could have removed the Axis from Africa without the Torch landings and this was the precurser to Italy.

I also doubt the Brits/Commonwealth would have the heart/resources for Overlord on their own. And if they would have attempted it it would not have been strong enought. Not enough ships, landing craft, infantry, airborne, planes or fuel.

As for the ruski's well whilst there was Lend Lease it couldn't last for ever. Also if the Germans were able to remove assets from Europe it might have made some difference. But the big change would have been the air war. No American raids and the RAF without America cash would have been smaller with less fuel thus restricting their options. This would have resulted in smaller and fewer air raids and less disruption to the german production. I still doubt that the Germans could have won but they might have been able to fight Russia to a stand still in 43/44 and maybe negotiated peace?

Whats other peoples ideas?

FNG

 

If the US hadn't joined the war, Britain would not have been able to even make plans for something similar to Overlord; they lacked the manpower and were stretched out all over the globe protecting their colonial posessions. Besides, without the help of the American navy, could the British have lifted the German submarine "blockade"?

For Russia, not recieving American aid would have meant that they wouldn't be nearly as mobile as they were in history (lacking trucks and boots). This probably meant that the Germans would have been more able to play out a few mobility advantages, but in the end if the Volga line isn't cut Russia is going to win on sheer numbers. It may have taken a decade and a lot more people than it did historically, though. This probably means a peace proposal from either side will be accepted at some point.

In short the war will not be lost, but it will not be won, either. The remaining Allies will remain intact, unoccupied; but they will never have any hopes of liberating Europe.

The question, then, is would the US really not join if not for Pearl Harbour? During most of 1941 the country was discussing providing all sorts of aid for Britain; the Atlantic Charter and the ABC talks show a clear intention of the US to intervene if necessary, particularly against Germany. If it becomes obvious that Britain will lose, the US might just step in on its own accord, provided the American government can convince the people that it's for the better. Then the problem remains that in the scenario above, Britain doesn't really lose, so that American intervention may still not be forthcoming.

Any thoughts?

 

One thing to remember is that Pearl Harbour only brought the US into the war against Japan, it wasn't until Hitler declared war on the US on December 11th that the US came fully into the war against Germany.

It might have had to wait for a 'situation' to have developed, such as a U-boat sinking a ship of volunteer nurses on their way to Europe??

 

I think once the US entered war against Japan it was only time before they would have started against Germany.

But it was a mistake by Hitler to declare the way he did, probably one of his biggest.

FNG

 

Yes, but the question of this topic is what would have happened if Japan hadn't done anything, obviously.

 

america would of joined anyways no matter what happened it might of been anther year at the most

 

I agree.

 

they had to provoce to get the public opinion on their side. american destroyers tried to attack german subs who then logicly fired at the destroyers. so Roosevelt could say: "they shoted on us first"
and what about saying that the american zone was moved to 25 degrees west? in that zone it was for the germans forbidden to attack since it was tha zone in witch the americans were patrolling. all things to provoce germany so they would fire first an then america could go to war. if japan didn't attack america, america wouldn't declare war on japan, and germany wouldn't declare war against america

 

very interesting quillen never thought of it that way

 

There was no garrantee that Germany would declare war on America anyway. The Soviet/Western Alliance and the German/Japanese Alliance were marriages of convenience at best. Japan and the Soviet Union were not at war until after Germany was defeated and that was only really as a last minute territory grab by the Soviets.

If Roosevelt wanted to provoke a war with Germany he could have done so much earlier since a US Navy Destroyer was sunk by U-boat as early as 1940 (I believe). He didn't have to gamble on the possibility that the Nazi government would declare war to help out their Japanese Allies.

 

But I suppose that FDR had to fuel the American publics lust for revenge/war with Germany and all that. It would take some time and a lot of provokations to get the Americans into fighting mode.

That said and done, I do believe that come 1942, sooner or later the situation on the Atlantic would warrant a declaration of war.

But would that include the Japanese? I'm not sure. But when Germany was reduced to ashes in '45 or perhaps as late as '46, the US might turn to Japan.

As mentioned in another thread, the Japanese sneak attack on the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Habur was about the most idiotic move in that war. It had been far better for the Empire of Japan to focus on the European Colonies, thereby gaining access to much need resources, oil, rubber, steel and what not and then fight the US only if absolutely necessary, say the US declared war!

Best regards!

- B.
Best reagds!

 

I don't think FDR wanted to get the US into the war against Nazi Germany and actually wanted to avoid war with Japan. As noted, perhaps the best Japanese "strategy" would have been to avoid military contact with the USA. I still think it is unlikely that FDR would have permitted the Japanese to pick off European colonies, especially the oil and rubber of the Ducth Indies, without reacting. The whole Japanese mindset of Bushido and superiorty of effette westerners probably would not have allowed them to follow a course of action that did not include taking on their main opponent in the Pacific, the USA.

 

The Germans would have whooped Britain's and Russia's asses. Without America, Britain would not be able to set Overlord in motion, and Stalin would not have gotten the Second Front he 'so desperately needed'.

 

edit:misread something

 

Doubtful. Just because the British would not be able to mount Overlord doesn't mean the Germans would be able to launch Seelöwe. Result: stalemate.