It is the soldier

The way this topic is developing is not tolerable.

Tj: That nonsense about America giving everyone all their freedoms in World War II is an unrealistic self-indulgent generalization and you know it as much as I do.

Sovietsniper: Don't act insulted when presented with obvious facts. The Soviets, when they set up the DDR in Eastern Germany, were not at all intending to give the Germans the rights and freedoms mentioned in the poem above, and therefore it is perfectly reasonable not to mention them in a list of the nations that "gave" the Germans these freedoms (even though in reality, the Germans did it themselves, as Che already noted).

Che: Because it is so clear that the Russians had no part in introducing freedoms in Germany, there is no need to provoke anyone by pointing it out underlined by angry emoticons. Or to reply to someone being insulted by this provocation by pointing out crimes committed under a totalitarian regime - this is the same as if Sovietsniper would post now blaming all Germans for the Holocaust.

Danyel: It is very easy to read something between the lines of what other members actually wrote, but this does not mean they intended to say what you think they intended to say. Such assumptions tend to lead to heated argments because frankly you cannot know all the layers of meaning in a piece of written text, particularly not a short one, and in the perfect situation you'd best ignore everything you assume and reply only to what you actually read.

 

I just tried to give a tribute to the fallen american soldiers, but I didn´t wanna say that other countries ((England, Wales, Scotland and Nothern Island) UK ) do nothin´ for freedom.

And at the moment freedom is only defended by these two nations, with america on top.
Italy, Spain and Poland fight/fought along with the USA just because they thought they get some advantages.

Sry sovietsniper

 

There is a difference between defending one's own freedoms and attacking other countries. There were Dutch soldiers in Iraq too (there are still some in Afghanistan), and a whole many others you are overlooking by your generalizing statement. Since the majority of the Dutch population is against the war in Iraq, the Dutch government was (before the troops were pulled out) "defending our freedoms" against our will - very much contrary to the freedoms they claim to defend. The soldiers who fell and fall in Iraq and Afghanistan should be mourned, but not as martyrs of democracy: they should be mourned as victims of their own governments.

If it is the will of the people, in democratic states, not to go fight agressive wars against countries that see them as the enemy, then those democratic states should not go to war, no matter the consequences. If pacifism and inactivity becomes the downfall of democracy then so be it - you cannot but respect the decision of the people you bestow with ultimate power if you believe it is right that they should wield this power.

 

Germany

Roel i don't understand your Anti American feelings. I've been on these forums for a while and it floors me how much Europeans dislike the US. we've never done anything deserve your dislike and it seems that you take every opportunity bash us. America has helped all of you though the toughest times. yet after Sept 11 Bush asked for your help and some of your governments helped yet your people are against the war for no reason except that you hate America. even if you disagree with America now there is no reason that you have to bash them during WW2. you name all these all other country's that helped and they did help in the war. But no country came close to the Americans in winning WW2. so Roel are you saying that America played no part in freeing your country because that is what it sounds like and i think everybody will agree with me that is nonsense. and i never said WW2 America has helped protect Europe since we landed in France to the fall of the wall in Berlin. i think you all should take a look at CHE he can say you know what i love my country and my Continent but the American really helped us when we needed help and they should be recognized for it. Che your the only European who's opinion i respect because you seem to be levelheaded. so to all of you go ahead hate us if you want but remember next time maybe we wont be there and your going to miss us

 

Re: Germany

Well this has to go back to the basics, Every country did there part. Without either one of the big three then the war would have been harder/lost (up for debate). Bush wanting to go to war with Iraq and Afganistan was his choice the Europeans dont really want to get in another conflict we've been in to many as it is. and also your are generalising us Europeans to much. saying that we all hate america is a sterotype. Also to my knowledge wasnt it a Canadian unit that Liberated the Netherlands, not an american one. also tj on youre point that america has been here for us europeans during our darkest hours, how about the napoleonic wars when napoleon threatened to invade england and had the rest of europe or most of it under his control. also as a little pendantic note, Roels name is spelt roel not role

 

Germany

first sorry about the name Roel. second i believe that around the time of the Napoleonic wars we had just fought england for our Independence and were about to fight them again. so we where not going to help them after france had helped us in the war for independence.

 

Re: Germany

Actually after Sept 11, when President Bush asked for help, all of Europe offered it's help.
Every european country with a somewhat significant military power, especially Germany, France and Britain helped in Afghanistan.
For the moment there are more european than US troops in that country.
And contrary to your belief, the war in Afghanistan has broad public support in Europe.(At least in France that is, but I think it's similar in other countries).

Well that is debatable.Most historians seem to agree that the USSR played the most important role.
Personally I would not rate one of the "big three"(US, UK, USSR)as "the most important".

Yes, they did really help.
And actually that help is widely recognized and remembered in Europe.
Not any other historical event is so much commemorated here as the liberation.
Remember the ceremonies in Normandy or the Ardennes last year, all which had an obvious pro-american orientation.
Of course some here are not thankfull to the US, but mind you, according to most historians France's help was decisive in securing victory for the US in the war of independence, but yet, in an opinion poll in 1978, 80% of US citizens responded that France did not play an important role in that war!
Talk about ingratitude.

 

Re: Germany

Sadly, I think that number is probably about right. However, I think that should be attributed more to poor education than ingratitude! Take a look at our school systems. With few exceptions, history is not taught in a manner that all of us weirdoes would appreciate!

I'd be willing to bet, right off the top of my head, that's the same reason for the "ingratitude," and anti-Americanism floating around the rest of the world.

 

Re: Germany

[/quote]


....which bet you would most certainly win.

Anyway, I think, tough it exists,european antiamericanism is often overestimated in the US.

Mostly it would bether be described as anti-bushism, or anti-unilateralism or whatever.
To quote General De Gaulle:"Americans tend to think everybody hates them, french tend to think everybody likes them....both are wrong."


The real america haters in Europe are found in the political extremes, the radical left hate it because it stands for capitalism, and the radical right hate it because it stands for multiculturalism.
But these radicals are only a small minority.

 

Sorry to chip in on this, but years ago (Early 1990s), I visited the US on holiday and was talking to an American boy about the same age as me (Early teens). He asked how we got from Britain to the US.

"Did you get the ship?" He asked.

"No"

"Did you drive?" He asked.

"No"

"Hmmm... So you got the ship?"

"No"

"Ah, then you most have driven."

"No"

This went on for about ten minutes, all the while jumbo jets are noisily crossing the sky above us, eventually I could take it no more and had to point out the practicalities of driving across the Atlantic and that we actually flew in an American built Boeing 747. Amazing really, 90 years of powered flight and this apparently the first he'd heard of it!

(Note and Disclaimer: I am not claiming that this is indicative of all American teenagers or Americans as a whole, just sharing what I found a fairly amusing tale from my own and trying to lighten the mood)

Aside from that I agree with everything Castelot's said, I don't think you'll find people are as anti- the US as you think, some are naturally and they are vocal about it (But then that's just freedom of speech). You would be better off not assuming that everyone is trolling US bashers with a grudge.

But no country came close to the Americans in winning WW2.

TJ, as much as I hate to say this the Soviets lost around 25,000,000 war dead. The US lost about 400,000 in all theatres (AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong). The British Commonwealth and Free Europeans held the line in Africa and the Med until the US got involved, without which it would have been a much more costly war for the Americans. The US very generously supplied arms, materials and equipment to everyone to enable them to fight, then later on soldiers, sailors and airmen.

I almost get fed up saying this. WWII was a group effort with the British Empire and Commonwealth, Soviet Union and United States. No one part was really any more important the others. Few people on here are actually anti- the US, but no-one is going to fall for those kind of simplistic generalisations. Frankly that kind of "We won the war for you" attitude belongs in the playground

In anycase I'm pretty sure this argument has been done plenty of times before here, the end result is pretty much always the same.

 

The very fact that a German openly showing appreciation for America is causing such a huge deal proves without a single doubt that there is a definite Anti-American census on this forum.

Not to mention that the moderators have a reputation of selective censorship of Americans (You know what I’m getting at, Roel.)

 

Please guys be polite.

 

Well, as you can see, I was forced to lock this topic.

Oddly, for some reason several Americans here feel they have been attacked and insulted in their national pride even though no one, ever, in this thread mentioned anything to the lesser glory of the USA. What do you take offence with, TJ, Danyel? With my pointing out the fact that it is not possible to feel patriotic about anything but your fatherland, which has nothing to do with any specific nationality? With my pointing out the fact that it wasn't American soldiers but (partially American, mostly French) philosophers who brought the ideals mentioned in the thread-opening poem into this world, which is not so much a jab at American patriotism as it is at militarism in general? At Simon's curiosity as to why Che added an American patriotic symbol to his post even though the ideals mentioned in the poem were enacted pretty much throughout Europe and North America in the 18th and 19th centuries? If you can answer any of these questions positively please do so by PM and we will talk, but it seems to be that you have both been guided by the strange idea that things are Anti-American before they actually and explicitly are.

No one has questioned or insulted Che's admiration for America. No one has even brought up anything that could dent his pride for this nation; all I have done myself is argue against the militaristic tone of the poem, all Simon has done is argue against the single-nation emphasis of the picture - which doesn't diminish the glory of the US as much as it makes other countries not seem too bad by comparison. Even so, you have both posted in this topic as if it has turned into a huge all-out Anti-American slugfest. This simply isn't true, really, if you look at what was written instead of what you want to see. I can see how you feel my locking this topic is a result of my Anti-American bias if you feel that this topic was considerably Anti-American, but it was not, and therefore my locking it is in fact a result of my duty as forum admin to prevent nationalist fights.

In response to your accusation that I am an Anti-American: I dislike nationalism in all its forms. If anyone were to come here and proclaim his or her country better than anybody else's, then no matter which country he means, I will argue against it if I reasonably can because nationalism is a dangerous bias indeed. Unfortunately on these forums the only people who have ever displayed any kind of serious nationalist bias are Americans and Canadians, and thusly I may come across as Anti-American or Anti-Canadian where I am really only anti-nationalist. Nor does this mean that the forum has an Anti-American census about it; rather, it means some of its members are overwhelmingly pro-American and occasionally have to be tempered a bit lest their nationalist pride gets in the way of their rational judgment. In practice this means that few others than Americans have been reprimanded for nationalist bias, but that is not my fault, that is simply the way things are on this forum.

This, then, is completely uncalled for. Yes, I have been critical of the US in other threads; I am entitled to my personal opinion and I usually get plenty of well-reasoned replies on this subject, often causing me to alter my opinion. This does not get in the way of my judgment as administrator and I will not write anything on these boards I would not tolerate from others. In fact whenever a topic turns out to become nationalistically coloured, like this one, what do I do? Do I come up and enter some more Anti-American stuff just to heat up some American patriotic feelings and get a few sparks flying? No. I lock the topic.

Like Simon said, America has greatly helped "us" in World War II and I am indeed grateful for it, but I do not acknowledge that they did it all by themselves, or that, which seems to be professed by today's schools in the Netherlands, "the Americans liberated us". The Allied victory was an Allied victory and the Netherlands as a whole were freed by a combination of American, British, Canadian, Dutch and Polish units which shows the involvement of a great many nations instead of your plain and simple "we liberated you in WW2". The Americans really helped us when we needed them, I will not deny this for a second. The Americans were the only ones who helped us and we should be forever thankful and we are no longer allowed to ever disagree with them on their international policy because of this - I will deny this at every given opportunity.

I find it very strange that the only European whose opinion you respect is one who agrees with you.