Largest Single Fighter Airbattle of WWII

Very much to the contrary. The eastern front experten did poor in the west compared to their eastern achievements when they were transferred between the fronts. The exception to that were Bär and Rudorffer, who both scored multiple victories in any fronts and any planes they were sent to, but in general the eastern front experten did nothing in the west compared to their victories in the east.

 

phillipp 178 in th east 28 in west,hackle 137e,61w..kirshcner167,21..lang 144,29..steinhoff148,28..weisenberger175,33..brandt 160,20...hardley what you could call going to your doom in the west...most of these guys were out east alot longer than in the west...and theres lots fewer targets in the west till 44

 

canambridge/Tim:

The incident you are referring to involved Luftwaffe Ace Oberstleutenant Egon Mayor.

Here you go:

June 26, 1943 mission details:

"Early in the morning forty-eight Thunderbolts took off from the advanced base at Manston. Having previously been criticized for going off on his own, this morning Johnson resolved to stay in formation. The three squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group were all up: the 61st (Johnson's), 62nd, and 63rd. Before the mission, Johnson felt the cold fear that he always felt, and which he was able to channel into higher alertness. They flew up, over the Channel, into France, and soon spotted sixteen Fw-190s. Before Johnson could communicate or coordinate with his flight, he was hit. 20mm cannon shells ripped through his plane, smashing the canopy, punching holes in the plane, and inspiring in Johnson an overwhelming urge to bail out. More explosions smashed the plane, and Johnson's frantic "Mayday!" calls drew no response. Fire began to envelope the cockpit.

The Thunderbolt spun crazily out of his control and the twisted and jammed canopy frame resisted his repeated, superhuman, full-body efforts to open it. As he struggled vainly with the canopy, the engine fire miraculously went out, but he could hardly see, as oil spewed back from the battered engine. He tried to squeeze out through the broken glass of the canopy, but the opening was just too small for both him and his chute. Trapped inside the P-47, he next decided to try to crash-land and evade. He turned the plane south, toward Spain - the recommended evasion route. After struggling with hypoxia and hallucinations(?), his thoughts came back into focus and he realized that the aircraft was still flying fairly well. He headed back for England, counting on his high altitude to help him make a long, partially-powered glide back home.

The instrument panel was shattered. The wind constantly blew more oil and hydraulic fluid into his cut up face and eyes. He had neglected to wear his goggles that morning, and any attempt to rub his eyes burned worse than ever. He and his plane were horribly shot up, but incredibly he was still alive. He made for the Channel, desperate to escape the heavily defended enemy territory.

Swiveling constantly, he froze in horror as he spotted a plane approaching him, an Fw-190, beautifully painted in blue with a yellow cowling. Johnson was totally helpless, and just had to wait for the German to get him in his sights and open up. The German closed in, taking his time with the crippled American fighter. Johnson hunched down behind his armor-plated seat, to await the inevitable. The German opened up, spraying the plane with 30-caliber machine gun fire, not missing, just pouring lead into the battered Thunderbolt. Johnson kicked his rudder left and right, slowing his plane to a crawl, and fired back as the German sped out in front of him.

The Focke-Wulf easily avoided the gunfire from the half-blinded Johnson, and circled back, this time pulling level with him. The pilot examined the shattered Thunderbolt all over, looking it up and down, and shook his head in mystification. He banked, pulled up behind Johnson again, and opened up with another burst. Somehow the rugged Republic-built aircraft stayed in the air. The German pulled alongside again, as they approached the southern coast of the Channel. Still flying, Johnson realized how fortunate it was that the German found him after his heavy 20mm cannons were empty.

As they went out over the Channel, the German get behind and opened up again, but the P-47 kept flying. Then he pulled up alongside, rocked his wings in salute, and flew off, before they reached the English coast. Johnson had survived the incredible, point-blank machine gun fire, but still had to land the plane. He contacted Mayday Control by radio, who instructed him to climb if he can. The battered plane climbed, and after more communication, headed for his base at Manston. Landing was touch and go, as he had no idea if the landing gear would work. The wheels dropped down and locked and he landed safely.

Egon Mayer
Johnsonn's opponent that day was the Luftwaffe Ace Egon Mayer: his rank was Oberstleutnant (Lt.Col). My friend, Diego Zampini, supplied the following details on Mayer:
He started to score victories in June 1940 (during the French campaign) with the famous JG 2 "Richthofen," and participated in the Battle of Britain, scoring several kills but being also downed four times. In July 1941 his tally increased to 20, and during only 21 days in the summer of 1942 he shot down 16 British fighters, being promoted to Gruppenkommandeur of III/JG 2. He was a Major when he met Robert Johnson’s P-47 on June 26 1943 and damaged it very seriously (Mayer at that flew time a Fw 190A-5). On this day the 61st and 56th FG were flying escort for 250 B-17s against Villacoublay airfield, being intercepted by Mayer’s unit, which shot down three B-17s of the 384th BG in head-on attacks. About that time when Mayer and Georg-Peter Eder created the deadly head-on attacks against the B-17s. On September 16 1943, the recently promoted Oberstleutnant Egon Mayer (now Kommodore of JG 2) shot down three Flying Fortresses in less than 20 minutes. He achieved his 100th kill in February 1944, but he was shot down and killed by a Thunderbolt on March 2 1944 over France while he was trying to attack an Allied bomber. Mayer was only 27 years old. (Source: Microsoft Flight Combat Simulator: in the section "Luftwaffe Aces.").
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from www.airaces.com

It's a great story I must admit.
Tim

 

So many times, victory is a direct result of "who sees who... first."

Majorwoody would argue that Bob Johnson didn't "play fair" when he bounced his opponent. I would argue that that's how the game was played-out if the opportunity was presented. Luftwaffe or USAAF.

I think it speaks to Bob Johnsons' talent and aggressiveness to dive his T-Bolt inverted, and open-up on the lead-plane. Even with an opponent bringing fire to bear on his aircraft, he cooly continued to adjust his lead and concentrate on his original target.

I would offer that many qualities go into the making of an ace. Good hand-eye coordination is required... and exceptional vision can NOT be under-emphasized. I would offer those with a "natural talent" for flying... and, perhaps--like race-car drivers--those who understand the mechanical or engineering-side might have a leg-up. Tommy McGuire was said to take a great personal interest in the maint. on his P-38, often rolling-up his sleeves and getting dirty helping ground personnel. He thought he was a better pilot because he knew his airplane better than his opponent knew his.
Luck can also not be discounted in the making of an Ace. Many of the best pilots were shot-down multiple times. Sometimes the odds--and exhaustion--of flying missions caught-up to even the best.
Last and not least, the quality of the aircraft figures in there somehow. Clearly that P-47 Razerbacks' rugged construction helped to save Robert Johnsons' life when he met Egon Mayor--and LUCK--as Mayor ran-out of 20mm ammo early in the fight.
I'm sure the manuverability of the bf 109 saved many pilots lives, and I've also read the radial-engined Fw190 was a more rugged A/C than the Messerschmitt. I dare say there were very few aces flying "second-string" equipment which suffered from poor ground maintanance.

Some day a pilot's luck will run-out. Allies had the luxury of pulling their top-performers from a combat area and using them to train upcoming pilots. Germany did not have that option in the last couple years of the war.

Tim

 

Philipp KIA -43 Thunderbolt
Lang KIA -44 Thunderbolt
Kirschner KIA -43 Spitfire
Brändle (there's no Brandt with 180 kills. Brändle has 160 east, 14 France/BoB, 6 west) KIA -43 Spitfire

Some other experten, who got transferred from the east and got killed rather quickly after transfer:

Emil Bitsch 104 east, 4 west, KIA -44Spitfire
Wolf-Dietrich Wilkce 137 east, 12 west, KIA -44 Mustang
Josef Zwernemann 106 east, 20 Mediterranean and west, KIA -44 Mustang
Kurt Ubben 90 east, 20 Mediterranean, North-Africa and west, KIA -44 Thunderbolt
Karl-Heinz Weber 136 east, 0 west KIA -44 Mustang Rouen (France)


Every single pilot surely was great, but the airwarfare just differed too much between the theaters. If you didn't cope quick enough, you were killed.

Those odds aren't really favourable for a luftwaffe experten, who first racked numerous kills in the east and then got a transfer to west :/

 

tim, months ago i got into a long debate with simon and others ...i felt that the lw super aces were a phenomenon that was not seen before....(ie ww1)...and not seen since (ww2 till today)....that their mental toughness,aggressive spirit and skill (a hundred guys with over one hundred kills)...is not something that the world will see ever again...(modern fighter costs and numbers preclude this)...i take nothing away from johnson ,bong ,malan ,tuck et all...were they members of jg52 they might have become super aces too....i relize that allied and lw aces operated in different environments...still a combat kill is a combat kill and a high number of kills does mean something...simon and some others have argued that an allied ace with 28 kills is just as skilled as a lw ace with 128 kills ..and is his equal in combat! this is to me,patently ludicrus...no disrespect to simonr who has an encyclopedic knowlege of ww2 aviation ...as to fair play ,tim ,in ww2 combat it is a nonsequitar,shooting lw aces in parachutes as they descend over occupied europe is fair and to be accepted...the blind side bounce is normal everyday tactics in ww1 and 2,and today...and pure dumb luck is a big factor...phillipp was unlucky that day...and johnson was very skilled and very brave as always...

 

hubsu, as you no doubt know,all soldiers in combat are fugatives from the law of averages....infantrymen ,tankers ,sailors,and especially pilots.....audie murphy and erich hartmann would have prolly been killed in 1946 had the war continued...hurri pilots in malta called it diceing...rolling the die everytime they took off....a fighter pilot ,has in his back seat ,the grim reaper...even when not in combat....ie bong,mccudden ,marsialle ...these guys knew this,what makes them amazing to us was their willingness to to play craps ,for days,weeks ,years.... in the lw apparently post traumatic stress was not permitted...3 fingers shot off,3rd degree burns ,broken back?...take a few weeks off then ,if you must...please call us as soon as you regain normal vision in at least one eye,sgt!

 

maj woody:
Hellfire son. If we never debated, our skills would get rusty!
All meant in good-spirited fashion.
When we then take the time to do some research, we find countless stories of heroic engagements that make us appreciate the talents it took to survive in air-combat. In a target-rich enviornment.
None of my comments are meant to belittle the accomplishments of any fighter-pilot, allied or axis, ace or no.
I do continue to maintain that many factors are weighed to judge the true worth and mettle of a pilot, opportunity being but one. The Luftwaffe enjoyed their fair-share of the best, that point is not being contested.
Your volley.

Tim

 

simon ,tim ...pehaps i can make my argument a different way..... i like shooting ,ive been doing it for 40 years on and off and im a pretty good shot ...with rifle and pistole..teaching my 10 year old boy has re aquainted me with the discipline...hold the rifle firmly to your cheek and sholder ..take a breath ..let half out....squeeeeeeeezze ever so slowly ok ,now ive been in many paintball and bb gun fights ...not combat perhaps but plenty adrenilen enough for me...this combat shooting is quite different from hitting beer bottles ...am i right?....also im a private pilot with hundreds of hours ...an online game allows me the walter mitty pleasure of simulated ww2 air war...though ive logged a zillion hours or sim combat ,im ,i guess no expertan......shooting from a moveing plane at a moveing plane is really diffecult...especially when your quarry doesnt want to be hit...my gunnery is ok ,my tactical awareness and energy management are lackluster....the only way in real life to become an expert combat flyer and shooter would be in actual combat...hitting a target sleeve in texas aint the same as combat...to log 10 ,20 30 kills in combat is an amazing feat...and you got to know..the more you do the better you become more relaxed ,able to cooly watch 4 or 6 enemy fighters whirling about and make the calculations and split second timeing and squeeze .....if you guys wish to discount all the east front lw guys as mere diletantes shooting helpless uzbeks in biplanes...lets look at the west ....50 lw men with over 50 kills with not a drooling mongoliod slav in the carload...these guys were very good ...not even one raf or yankee broke 40 kills ....shooting skills matter,flying skills matter...coolness in combat is not something that comes to most men easily...these lw guys were a phenomenum ,no one on our side and very few russians can join this club its true the lw guys had lots of targets but lagg and spit drivers could find all the targets they wanted to as well just by pushing towards german lines...kills are just one measurement its true ,but its the other skills it takes to get over 50 kills ,the non shooting skills that must be honed to perfection by hours and hours of COMBAT...if you want to choose kills per sortie as the yardstick then the lw will still dominate...and by a huge margin once again ...i take nothing away from our allied aces ....all combat soldiers are heroic to me... but cmon guys ,lets face it the expertan were by any standards ,the best the world will ever see...we allies crushed them with quantity ,like monty at el alemein or stalins t34s...our guys were good enough ..and they were legion..

 

If i recall, Marmaduke Pattle had at least 40 kills and at most 50(Recent research claims to be more than 40). And all these within 9 months against overwhelming opponents,very limited maintenance and no hope of reinforcements plus in outdated Gladiators(for the most part).

 

Dick Bong was sent home with 40 confirmed kills... the top U.S. ace in both theatres. The "Ace of Aces" of the USAAF if you will.

Tim

 

In my opinion the greatest Allied ace is Pattle. No other fighter pilot of the allies achieved so much in so little time and under really bad conditions.

 

i think its the top russian aces ,to survive through 42,43 up against the likes of rall and barkhorn everyday ,watch all of your classmates die ,then start to prevail...

 

Russian pilots really proved themselves after so hard battles against the Germans. But, i'd like you consider this; Pattle, fought against the Axis during the Allies' darkest hour. Pattle scored the most of his victories in Greece from November '40 till 20 April '41--day of his death. During that period Italian planes were at least evenly matched--and by far numerically superior-- with Greek PZL-24 and British/Greek Gladiators.Plus,many Italian pilots were veterans of the Spanish Civil War, not to mention the German interference later(April '41). On the other side the Greek front had no reinforcements at all.

 

thats intresting about pattle ...ill have to read up on him...

 

There is no doubt that the LW superaces were brilliant but if each ace was brought under the same combat conditions with a similar plane. Who would win? (I know a battle like this would be very impractical considering the circumstances of both sides but i am curious)

 

we will never know for sure ....i belive and it seems plain as day to me .... when squad x is comprised of pilots with 100 kills apeice, meets enemy squad y whose members average 20 kills apeice ,y is gonna get the short end of the stick every time, all other things being equal .,..its not the kill numbers ,its the combat seasoning of the 100 kill team , tactical awareness, flying skill , energy management ,and lots and lots of deflection shooting practice...and most critical ,a cool head under fire...something that can not really be learned at advanced traing feilds