Israels Actions

TISO:

Non-threatening question for you, I just want your opinion.

Assume terrorist/freedpm fighters are launching random unaimed attacks against your locality (based on years o real or perceived mis-treatment) while located in areas surrounded by largely innocent, though sympathetic, non-combatant civilians.

What do feel would be the proper response?

 

Israeli way of operating in west Europe ( assasination teams) or limited warfare with special ground/airborne/boat forces based on solid info. Basicly anything but bombings on Bush style info. We all know that this would be no problem for Israelis, but main problem is that Israel want world to see their militay might (especialy IAF - their pride and joy) i.e. they are flexing their muscles for anyone /especcialy Syria and Iran) to see them.

 

All I can say is if terrorists starting lobing rockets over the border from Canada, Cuba or Mexico into the United States, I expect our government would respond with deadly force. Our citizens would expect no less.
I would expect the average Israeli expects no less from their government.
Against great resistance from many, Israel has attempted to vacate and create a space for Palestinians. I don't think Hezbollah is interested in diplomacy nor common-ground discussions that would lead to a cease-fire. Evidence seems to point to governments in Syria and Iran supporting these terrorists, and suppling them the increasingly sophisticated weaponry that they just can't wait to shoot at Israel.
I would argue for the right of every nation to exist... peacefully, with it's neighbors. If the Lebanese government and military have no control over their country, they are irrelevant to any discussion on restoring-order to Lebanon and control of their borders.
It would appear the best hope may be a UN peacekeeping force, though our last efforts in Lebanon resulted in many casualties.
I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself from attack, regardless of the source, and it appears they have the blessing of the US to kick Hell out of Hezbollah for at least another week. Will inncocents die? Show me a war/conflict that civilians didn't? Hezbollah has no interest in identifying or prioritizing legitimate military targets. Israel is their target.

Tim

 

What evidence? Sophisticated weaponry is not so sophisticated if you know what you are doing. One New Zealander proved that building cruise missile from off shelf components is possible ( he managed to build working example and got fired and sued for showing it on the net). So if you know what are you doing nothing is too complicated. Times when "sophisticated" things like shaped charges, remote detonators, rocket engines for small missilies were only produced in technologicaly developed countries are over ( and were over at least a decade ago).

Where? Gaza, West bank weren't theirs in the first place. So will Israel return land confiscated (in Israel and occupied territories) in last 60 years?

 

TISO:
It was reported that under close examination, the rockets were Syrian in origin. Also a rather sophisticated anti-ship missle was fired and hit an Israeli warship. It is questionable if the Hezbollah could have figured this out on their own. Iranian technical support is suspected.

Israel took Gaza and West bank during wartime. I see it as a warprize.
"Yes, it was yours, now it's ours. War is Hell."
Tired arquement TISO. It's a moot point whether they are giving back what WAS or wasn't theirs in the first place. They controlled it, and made efforts to resettle there. It was not expected to win popular support for Israeli governments' decision to forcebly remove Israelis and bulldoze their settlements.
I've heard it told that the most effective Governor is the one who seems to be hated by all. His supporters think he supports the opposition, the opposition believes he is sympathetic to his supporters...
It certainly did not make the government popular with the Israeli people. So today, Hamas and Hezbollah remind the Israeli government why they insisted upon this "buffer" against radical islamic factions on their borders in the first-place.

I'm not sure where in the world you are from TISO, but it's difficult for me to see the Israelis as the ones attempting to pour piss on the fire for peace in the region. I suspect you will see public sentiment turn against Hezbollah and Hamas from moderate, Sunni-influenced Arab countries as well as Europe and the West.
My .02 cents.

Tim

 

Done a little checking.
According to Israeli sources their boat was hit by Chinese built (Iranian supplied) C-802 "Eagle Strike" missile (radar guided with range of 120km). American sources say drone aircraft so i'm not shure which was it.

And according to Hezbolah themself, Haifa was hit by Iranian designed (but simple to produce) Fajir-3 missile (unguided artillery rocket: lenght 5,3m, cal.240mm, range ??) and that close targets are being hit by improved BM-21 (soviet designed Katjushka with improved range of 40km and capable to fire 40 missiles in 20 seconds)

C-802:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm

 

Bugger double post

 

Hoosier has basically summed it up. The UN was supposed to disarm the Hezbollah, but have failed at this - giving the Israelis the right to defend themselves from attacks against their citizens on their soil. I think everybody can agree on this.

TISO, the Hezbollah have given the Israelis no choice. They cannot ignore the fact that they are being bombed ( :roll: ) and must take action. When the terrorists then hide among civilians, casualties among them become inevitable. The responsebility is on Hezbollahs shoulders. Instead of fighting a proper war and trying to get a straight victory (which they cannot achieve) they will try to make this a PR victory. Not in my eyes.

 

An interesting development:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 197544.stm

 

I'm not sure "we all know this would be no problem for the Israeli's".
This approach works well only when you have "solid info", and your assasination teams can operate freely. When freedom-terroists are operating in a symapthetic environment the team may be at greater risk than the target. In West Euroe Israeli's have safe spaces to operate out of, targets leave safe areas occasionally and expose themselves. How would Israel get solid info on which group of Arabs fired a rocket into Haifa? I think the Israeli point of view is that sepcial ops teams and assasins were not getting the job done and that the Lebanonese governement was giving some level of support to the freedom-terrorists.
In any case most West European countries don't like the idea of Arabs and Israelies fighting it out in their cities. I doubt Canada, or even the US, would let Israeli assasins operate on our territory, we have this disturbing habit of arresting people and putting them on trial (or at least sending them to Gitmo).
If IDF goal is to flex their muscles, what is the goal of Hezbollah? they seem to be doing a pretty good job of chest thumping on have they have gotten IDF to react, claiming that the use of IDF ground forces "proves" that they have been able to withstand IAF attacks.

 

From the link Ricky posted:

I swear, why does the world even bother with the UN? While the UN is reluctant to send a peacekeeping force to the region, they may make up for this by handing out some personal responsiblity. :roll:

I'm annoyed by both sides, Hezbollah and Israel alike. That whole conflict, from its very beginning, is comparble to two blocks of wood repeatedly smashing together. Israel is notorious for excessive force (I can't entirely blame them) and it is questionable how much control any government has over the Palestinian militia. Both are defending what they believe to be their land, so it is unlikely that anything spectacular on the issue of peace should be expected (at least not for many decades).

Wanda Sykes, a popular comedian in the US, has had the best solution yet for the problem in the Middle East: send over a bunch of real estate agents. Make the Palestinians and the Israelis believe that there is better land elsewhere.

 

Thez is true. This can't work on Bush style info.

Germans captured almost the entire Europe during ww2, and annexed large chunk of Poland, Sudeten, large chunk of Slovenia, Lorraine, Luxemburg and made the effort to ressetle them (or making population German. Hitler's speech in Maribor: "Make me this country German again"). Did that made it right? No Occupied territory is occupied territory no matter how you look at it.


To me it seems that all this bombings of Lebanon and Gaza are more or less for Israeli interior political reasons. Olmert was not a general (or terrorist/freedom fighter) like most of up to now PM's. Since he supported Gaza pull out he now has to prove to the public that he can be tough guy.

But this is first step only. If this would not work one should unleash hordes of ambulance chasers (lawyers) upon both sides.

 

Um, on the West Bank... it is a hodge-podge of Israeli- and Palestinian-controlled areas. To say that it is 'Israeli' is not strictly true. Hell, they've been bombing terrorist targets there recently...


But on to my main point - I found another interesting article on the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/g ... 3page1.stm

Hezbollah has an elected member of government.

Would that then mean that, as Hezbollah forces crossed the Israeli border and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, Lebanon has technically declared war on Israel? Debate away...

 

So when CIA kidnapped civilian (OK he was a Islamist cleric) on Italian ground did they declare war on Italy? Or when they kiddnaped German citizen in Macedonia did they declare war on Germany or Macedonia?

BTW Italian generals ( from intelegence service) have bunch of problems becouse of this. It seems that couple of them may even land in jail.

 

I don't know, I'm simply asking the question...

 

Sure it is, it is just a matter of time. Human history is chock-full of it. Invasions, kicking the natives out or getting yourself kicked out, etc. etc. From the Vikings in Britain to the Indians in America, occupation and expulsion has happened over the centuries...

 

You are right Panzerman. You see nowdays such actions are considered barbaric (remember Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo?), but to some forum members (Tiger) such comparisons with ancient (and not so ancient) history are "appaling". Could this be why?

 

I am sure all such occurences are appalling for those involved, but the personal side of such things seem to fade in history. With the onset of an evolved human mentality to war and war crimes, there is less tolerance for invasions such as these. Hundreds of years from now, perhaps World War 2 would not be considered as "barbaric" as it is now. The way I see it, after Israel won the 1948 war and the consequent 1967 and 1973 wars, they deserve to exist as a state...

I can respect your disagreement with how Israel is defending themselves against the Hezbollah, but I cannot respect anyone who thinks that Israel does not have the right to defend themselves.

At this point, I think Israels best defense is an offense, and horrible thought it may be, it has to be done. They pulled completely out of Lebanon in 2000, but the Hezbollah has continued attacks...

 

I never said that they haven't the right to exist or to defend themselves, but blasting civilian is not a defending oneself but just plain murder. I hope that we do agree that killing civilians is a murder?

 

I agree that killing civilians (not including terrorists or paramilitaries) is wrong, but collateral damage is part of the war-package, no matter what. Which war has been fought without it? It is not nice, but it has to happen IMO.