Best Non-Major Army in World War Two?

I seriously think, without Canada on the allied side Britain would have fell. If Canada did not sacrifice so many ships to the North Atlantic, Britain would have starved. Also Canada, by the time of September, expected date for Sealion, Canada had 2 divisions, and a 3rd on their way, and the 4th was still being assembled. A sealion attempt would have looked alot better without those troops there. Canada also had an, unknown to me but atleast one, squardron fighting in the battle of Britain.

By wars end, Canada had the 3rd Largest Navy, 4th Airforce, 4th Army. In 1944 They were producing 400 tanks 1000 armoured cars, 90 aircraft and I believe 20 ships per MONTH.

Now just to kind of argue some other sugestions:
The Dutch: Although they fought well, they were not instrimental in Victory, nor did there contribution save another nation from falling.
The Greeks: They did fight very well, yet, they did fall, and they were not instrimental in victory.
New Zealand: Fought Great, but they did not fight as well or in the numbers or in amount of victorys of Finland, Canada or Australia.
Australia: Fought well, held off Japan, but it seems to me they were not doing as much as Canada or Finland. They were in the Desert, and Greece. Were not major in shutting down Germany or Italy, id imagine they could have fought instrimentally if the war with Japan went on longer, but that theater was ended with 2 A-bombs.
Finland fought excellant but my votes for Canada.

 

If it's about an army, I would go for the Finnish. They fought for their lives twice.
First in 1939 and later when the war broke out between Germany and Russia.

But if I can say something about a combat group, I also think about the resistance. Maybe in this case we should think about the Belgians, who collected a lot of information and also saved the Antwerp port from destruction in 1944.

Vekemans said how to go to Antwerp so that the Germans wouldn't notice that the British were coming.

Greetz

 

This thread is an example of how easy we can wander off topic.

Think the original question was a great one, but as some have said even my choice of in the end Canada, should really be classed as a major combatant.

Brad by the very nature that all the forces mentioned fought and occupied the enemies time and rescources they all actively must stand up and take credit for assisting in the final defeat of the enemy even if they lost their battle.

The idea of resistance fighters didnt really hit me either, but they must be included too surely?

What of the Polish Home army in Warsaw?

And what of our German friends they too had minor allies in the Axis forces who must have been worthy of mention here?

A more difficult one and im not opening the thread is who was the worst or most inneficeintly assisted in helping their self, or their major ally?

My tuppence goes to Yugoslavias army on ivasion, which makes me think why no one mentions Titos partisans in the minor ally area..?

And Denmark.

Stands back and waits for Danish posters appearing from every corner....

 

No one in the UK certainly, can or would minimize the effort New Zealand supplied to Britiain and the Commonwealth, served in some major battles with great distinction.

And dont know if they scared the enemy as much as they scared some allied troops.

The Haka introduced fear to allies never mind how they fought against the enemy...

 

Urgh--I just read your quite--"Prepare to repel borders."

AT this library where im using these computers to post here--one of the librarians is married to a crewman who served on that ship under that Captain. He was wounded in the Isreali attack on the ship and co-authored the book: "Assault On THe Liberty by: James M. Ennes, Jr.

Here is alos a website:

ussliberty.org

ill try again:

www.ussliberty.org

[ 25. January 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

Carl, have replied in your other thread, sorry didnt see this one first...

Give her my best, and remind her there are lots of us all over the world still fighting and remembering that crew.

Jim Ennes is a great guy, have been in touch with him many times. As for Mcgonagle, a true hero.

 

Interesting opinions in this thread. Of the major British Commonwealth an Empire forces mentioned so far, Canada, New Zealand and India, why has South Africa been omitted? However, my candidate are the Italian Liberation forces or CNL (Committee of National Liberation) and especially the CNLAI (Committee of National Liberation North (Alt) Italy.

The Italian theatre is often referred to as the ‘Side-show War’ of W.W.II and if you subscribe to the propaganda stereotypes, i.e. Italians can’t/won’t fight, Mussolini was their elected leader, they betrayed their German friends, then you’ll probably think my opinion rubbish. I don’t suppose for a moment I could change that thinking in a few paragraphs, especially as it has taken me a great number of years (including 3½ in Italy), to arrive at my evaluation. However, I would point out that Austria and the Huns were the traditional enemies of Italy while Britain and the USA were friends. In 1922 Mussolini seized power, he was never democratically elected or willingly appointed by the King. There were subsequent elections but only after Mussolini had ensured the removal or suppression of any effective opposition and all candidates were only those approved by the fascists. Mussolini never represented the majority of the people. Have you voted for every leader of your country in your voting lifetime? If the USA and Britain go to war in Iraq does it make any difference if you disagree? And, you have freedom of expression, right!

OK, why this army? Mussolini was dismissed and the King and Badoglio scurried away from Rome to Taranto with as many of the hierarchy as could scramble aboard something that floated. The Germans closed on Rome in force with Italian forces left with no orders, or ordered to do anything, or even to go home. One general who stayed and ordered his men to attack was Gen. Cadorna, an a-political soldier’s soldier of the old school. Unsupported and overwhelmed there could only be limited success and the survivors, including Cadorna, went into hiding in the hills or settlements. In respect of Italian forces wherever they were, according to the Germans, they were to disarm and await instructions. Some did, some fought the Germans, some outside Italy made their way back and many who returned to the occupied north joined Partisan groups or formed themselves into Autonomi Partisan units (the Independents).

When Mussolini allied Italy to Hitler, (thanks in no small part to the attitude of Britain’s Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden, aka Lord Avon), Italy was a population under the yoke of the fascists. It then became under the yoke of the fascists and the nazis. Though the people had more reason to liberate themselves they had no more means to do so but now had and even greater adversary to overthrow. With the Allied invasion of Italy and the Italian declaration of war on Germany, there was now a military force working to the same ends (of defeating the fascists and nazis) giving a real prospect of success to any efforts and sacrifices made. Had Hitler listened to Rommel and withdrawn German forces to the mountain barrier at the north of Italy, quite possibly most Italians might have simply gone home. Hitler listened to Kesselring however, and sought to make Italy a battleground throughout.

The Allies too saw Italy as a battleground against the Germans and grossly ignored or failed to appreciate the potential and willingness of hundreds of thousands of Italian soldiers who wanted to join the purge of Italy. It was agreed that the Italian POW’s of Africa could be enlisted after they were vetted, but, in practice this was a half hearted project unenthusiastically conducted resulting in only a fraction of the manpower being realised. Even the Italian units in Italy who volunteered were usually side-tracked and ‘begrudgingly’ employed and by-and-large continued to be treated as such despite more than adequate performance of the men which in many cases were exemplary.

The people in the north were now occupied and bottled-up. With the sea on either side, south of them were the Germans, north of them were the Germans, among them were the Germans and the remnants of the fascist regime. From 1943 the small political cells in the towns and the small groups of fugitives in the countryside grew and developed into a force for the liberation of Italy. When the CNL was formed it was agreed that whatever a person’s political motivation for overthrowing the fascists, all Italians must now unite in a common cause to throw the Germans out of all Italy and destroy what remained of the fascists. This was agreed and while people joined units labelled Democrats, Socialist, Communist, Royalist, etc, this was no indication of their personal political beliefs, you enlisted with the unit where you were.

For this emergent force to be most effective, it needed to be co-ordinated and directed. The CNLAI was formed of the group leaders in the north and Gen. Cadorna parachuted in outside Milan as Commander in Chief. Essentially they were three branches of the army. Those in the town and factory were Gappisti or Sappisti, predominantly engaged in sabotage and assassination. Sabotage might be as dramatic as an explosion in a train station to misfiling an office document. The Partisans in the country mainly engaged in combat and key installation protection, (what was needed to keep Italy running while the Germans were there would be needed for the same purpose when they had gone). The third was intelligence and propaganda. Everyone was engaged in intelligence but it was organised by the Fronte Militare Clandestino della Resistenza who gathered and passed information direct to Allied Command through a unit called Centro X.

Many Jews, (Italy never had a ’final solution’ but did have a reputation for tolerance towards Jews), elected to stay with the Partisans as did a number of Allied escapees, some themselves becoming prominent Partisans!

The Allies were pleased of the intelligence but still were pitifully slow in providing arms and equipment until the latter stages of the war. The CNLAI very much had to count on their own resources and on occasion were misused by the Allies or abandoned. When the Allies decided the final push was to take place in the beginning of 1945 instead of the end of ’44, the message to the Partisans from Alexander was to ‘stand down’ for the winter and be ready for the spring. However, as always this army had to feed, clothe and billet itself, now in sub-zero temperatures and remain armed and ready to defend itself or go on the offensive. Going home was a poor option if one at all!

In some respects, fighting as a Partisan is similar to Special Forces. However, the differences are dramatic. With Special Forces you should be going in with what you needed issued by stores. Usually extraction is planned with the possibility/feasibility of armour/artillery/air support if needed. You should have medics with you and a field and base hospital backing them up. When you tour is complete you can expect some leave, perhaps at home. As a Partisan you go in with what you have or what you have been able to acquire. You extricate yourself. If you’ve able to keep a small reserve this will be minimal and cannot risk itself to any great extent on your behalf as human resources are short. You have no armour or artillery to call upon unless you have been able to acquire something. In the case of armour this will be of a short term ‘use once’ basis as it will be slow and give you concealment problems. Artillery is a similar prospect other than you would probably keep it at your base camp for defence. Air support is non existent and if any happens to materialise it is likely to be just as dangerous to you as the enemy, between which it probably can’t distinguish. Any medical skills and supplies are what you happen to have with you. After you may be able to find help from a doctor, hospital or convent, but if discovered you, and quite likely your carers, will be tortured and/or killed. The standard punishment for a Partisan or anyone aiding them is torture and/or death. Your ‘tour’ ends when you’re killed, captured, run off or the war ends where you are. If you go home or to visit anyone and this becomes known, you jeopardise their lives as well as yours.

As a regular soldier, how would you feel about going into battle knowing that should you personally be identified, the enemy would go round your families home and butcher them?

Figures for autumn 1944 number Partisans around 90’000, (80’000 per Hitler’s Repubblica assessment and 99’800 per American OSS Intelligence). Kesselring estimated the total Resistance between 200’000 to 300’000, but then he would wouldn’t he as he had to account for why, in his words, he needed the equivalent of 6 divisions at any one time to try and keep them in check. Kesselring’s men were in addition to Gen. Wolff’s SS, the fascist Razzia e Demografia police, the 22’000 strong Black Brigade and their Sicherheit animals. While speaking of animals let’s not forget the Mongolis the Germans unleashed (and I choose my words carefully) from time to time in some areas.

Partisans were grouped into Brigades of approx. 450 combatants. Brigades were divided into 3 Battalions and Battalions into 3 Squads, (it was usual to find Partisans camped in Battalions rather than Brigades). Additional to combatants, Battalions often had others with them including women and children, usually relatives under danger by association. Gappisti and Sappisti operated in cells of 10 or less.

When many news reports of the day announced an Italian town had been ‘liberated’ by such-and-such Allied troops, the ‘liberation’ was no more than a walk-in as the town was already in the hands of the Italians.

Official figures put Partisan dead at 36’000, about one third of the prime fighting force.

There’s a short but fairly good piece on the CIA files at http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/spring98/OSS.html

No.9

 

As a Finn I try not to say anything on us...
This time!

Anyway, all above mentioned have made an impact on me in several places. These are just some parts I remember at the moment, nothing to do with the whole war whatsoever:

The "Aussies" in Tobruk. They were truly feared especially by the Italians who started to retreat immediately as they noticed the Austalians and said " Nobody told we were fighting THEM!!"

The Canadians in Normandy especially. The Dieppe operation...On the last one
Churchill killed those guys by sending them to certain massacre just to prove to Stalin that invasion was not possible..That´s my opinion.

The Poles. They fought hard on both sides, i.e. on the west side with the British and Canadians, and with the Russian troops. I am sure the Warsaw uprising could have been more but Stalin stopped his troops and let the Germans kill those men/women etc.

The New Zealand: Unfortunately do not remember much of the troops but I do think there were many high ranked officers from New Zealand who lead the allied to victory!

 

Hi Urgh--already did give your best regards to her and she said that she and her husband get many many calls from England and from around the world. Oh and if im not mistaken in which man she mentioned--I think McGonagle recently passed away--ill confirm who for sure next time I see her. Also--she said that she will let the ones they are in contact with--know about ww2n.com as that we are now a part of them which I think is way too cool.

 

Thanks Carl, yes the captain passed away a few years ago now.

Its always a good talking point when I walk around an airshow in the summer or a military museum and someone approaches me to ask what the US Liberty did?? Because I have it on my baseball cap....Gets lots of vets interested in the museums and always give them the url for the Liberty site.

 

Quite welcome--oh and I think there was another crewmember who recently passed away--ill ask the librarian the next time I see her and will let you know who he was

 

I could of sworn i had already replied to this thread or one just like it. So I shall repeat, my opinion would be that Canada does not really belong in the non-major catagory so I would vote for Finland

 

Oh ok if Canadas off limits Ill stick to the Greeks.