Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

262 breaking sound barrier

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by chromeboomerang, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,045
    Likes Received:
    4
    In "Hitler's Jet," it is stated:

    "Officially, on 14 October 1947 Captain Charles F. Yeager, USAAF, was the first man through the sound barrier flying the Bell X-1 but there have been claims, apparently not much disputed by the Americans, that a Luftwaffe-flown Me 262 achieved the distinction first. The statement by Kurt Wendel appears to be a non-controversial way of making the claim immediately postwar. A computer-based analysis carried out in 1999 at the Munich Technical University showed that the Me 262 could exceed Mach 1. The criteria involved commencing a descent with a maximum dive angle of between 40 to 70 degrees from above 30,000 feet."

    So, maybe Hans Guido Mutke did it after all!
    http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    372
    Location:
    Portugal
    The Bell X-1 was the first plane able to break the sound barrier in *horizontal* flight. Even Big Boy P-47 (who else :D ) was able to go transsonic in a dive (Juggy Power!). I think the Hawker Tempest was able, as well.

    As for the Schwalbe, in a dive quite possible, horizontal I don't know!
     
  3. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,038
    Likes Received:
    831
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    Very unlikely. First, there is the problem of the aerodynamics of the aircraft itself. It is very difficult for an aircraft not designed to the area rule to achieve supersonic speeds. The 262 was not even close to this having its widest cross section at the wings and fuselage joint about half way down the length of the aircraft. This would have resulted in blanking the small (by jet standards) rudder resulting in a loss of control directionally in a supersonic condition.
    Second, with plain inlets on the engines it is very likely that both would have suffered compressor stalls as a pressure front from the supersonic shock wave built up in front of them.
    The possibility that a Me 163 might have is far more likely.
     
    Riter likes this.
  4. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,045
    Likes Received:
    4
    Juggy & Tempest trannsonic eh? never heard that. got a site?
     
  5. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,523
    Likes Received:
    142
    The nearest a prop plane has ever got to breaking the sound barrier is a Spitfire flown by a RAF test pilot, reaching 0.89 mach, its impossible for a prop plane to go trannsonic.
     
  6. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,038
    Likes Received:
    831
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    Not true. It is possible for a propeller driven aircraft to break the sound barrier....weird, but possible!

    Weirdness of the 50's
     
  7. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,578
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    London, England.
    According to the link, it 'never approached supersonic speed'. Am I missing something here ? :confused:
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    372
    Location:
    Portugal
    No, I read that in one of those funny things called books. Can't tell you which one for now, got cases and cases of 'em :D
     
  9. CQBDent

    CQBDent Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    My understanding is that the confusion as to whether the Germans did or did not break the sound barrier is found in the accuracy of their air speed indicators. I have heard they were wildly inaccurate at max speeds. A bit like the accuracy of the so called 'petrol guage' in my car. i.e what said Mach 1 on the dial was not in fact mach 1.
     
  10. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,578
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    London, England.
    A very warm welcome to these forums, CQBDent ! Members from Australia always welcome here....

    That must be some car you've got - Mach 1 ! :eek: I know you've got some quick cars down there, but.....

    [​IMG]

    ( Only kidding ! ;) )
     
  11. gregm

    gregm Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2002
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    martin why pick on HRT (holden Dealer Team)
     
  12. gregm

    gregm Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2002
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    sorry sore point Fords are spending a large amount of Money trying to beat holdens (vauxauls)
     
  13. gregm

    gregm Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2002
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    to cqb Dent dont you know know the diference between a plane and a car
     
  14. CQBDent

    CQBDent Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol!...um yes :confused: ...although in NZ one can easily confuse a speed boat and a sports car. Have a Discovery channel video of 'the other 163 test pilot' talking about the Me163 which when doing a speed run approached Mach 1 and then went out of control :eek: ...the motor cut out and Dittmar regained control. [​IMG] Maybe 'mythbusters' needs to confirm or deny if the Me262 did break the sound barrier or not...certainly would be an entertaining analysis. I love the 262 and the comment that was made about it"looks fast standing still"
     
  15. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,578
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    London, England.
    Sorry Greg - on the spur of the moment Holden was the only typically Australian marque I could think of ! [​IMG]

    CQBD - quite a few of us here on the forum are big 262 fans so any discussions as to its merits/demerits are most welcome [​IMG]
     
  16. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Messerschmitt also conducted a series of carefully controlled flight tests with the series production Me 262. In these dive tests, it was established that the Me 262 was out of control in a dive at Mach 0.86, and that higher Mach numbers would lead to a nose-down trim that could not be countered by the pilot. The resulting steepening of the dive would lead to even higher speeds and disintegration of the airframe due to excessive negative g loads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

    The HG series of Me 262 derivatives was estimated to be capable of reaching transonic Mach numbers in level flight, with the top speed of the HG III being projected as Mach 0.96 at 6 km altitude. Despite the necessity to gain experience in high-speed flight for the HG II and III designs, Messerschmitt undertook no attempts to exceed the Mach 0.86 limit for the Me 262.

    The Me 262 HG III:

    http://www.luft46.com/gmart/gm262.html
     
  17. Seadog

    Seadog Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    11
    The Me-262 was noted for its inability to pull out of a high speed dive. Several inexperienced pilots lost their lives when going into a pursuit dive and the controls would fail to respond. This was a problem for any mach+ aircraft until they went with redesigned tails that moved as a single unit and not with flaps.
     
  18. Schwere Luft

    Schwere Luft Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    The first aircraft through the sound barrier in horizontal flight was the Lippisch P13 ramjet fighter. The US national archives have released details of this aircraft and its testing, but only to the end of 1944. There is declassified Polish material indicating that the Luftwaffe successfully tested the fighter to speeds of 2000 km/hr in 1945.
     
  19. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,038
    Likes Received:
    831
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    As far as I can tell from a number of various sources, the P13 never proceeded beyond windtunnel testing. Yes, the testing showed it could theoretically fly faster than sound. But, the problem in going from design to reality was not overcome before the war ended and no actual aircraft of this type flew. If anything, it probably would not have worked using the ramjet in any case. As post war testing and actual experience with ramjets has shown they work best in hypersonic regions well above mach 2, like mach 4+.
    As for getting the P13 to speed to even try and ignite the ramjet, a rocket booster was to be used. This too never proceeded beyond design stage. So, exactly when did the P13 actually get built and flown?
     
  20. Schwere Luft

    Schwere Luft Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Will provide tomorrow material on which statement was based.
     

Share This Page