Discussion in 'Military History' started by redfan45, Dec 30, 2008.
YouTube - Heroes Return
I do have to agree that some Vets are not treated well here in the US or elsewhere. But I do have to say that even here in the US not all Vets are feted or have parades.Especially those who come home and then are sent right back after serving for another 2nd, 3rd or 4th tour. I hardly see anything other then what is in the news. And none about any Vets being celebrated or any parades. For the most part they are ignored or not talked about unless absolutley necessary. Quite a few times I have seen and heard them used by others that are against the war. And that is when they have died or something is negative about them. To use them for thier own agenda and political purposes. Hell even here in Portland some want to make the city a sanctuary for AWOL soldiers and deserters! I see more negativity towards Vets then I really see any respect or celebration. And it is very sad to see the UK Vets being treated as such too. And not to knock the British but they entered WWI and WWII due to treaties and obligations. Not to "protect" thier territory. Poland was certainly not British territory LOL. And I would like to see redfan address the points I made about the US in my first post here. I would like to know how the US would have "lost" if it was an Allied effort?
To be honest, and whether its controversial or not, I think the breaking point on treaties was Chekslovakia. Thats where if we were to honour treaties the line should have been judged as crossed. I cant though speak for folk at the time, as in hindsight, we in the UK were not as ready as we were unreeady in Sept 39...does that make sense...probably not.
In hindsight we perhaps could not have honoured any commitments to the checks due to our leaders understandings of our military readiness. But I suppose the same could be said on Poland. But the line had to be drawn somewhere. Honourably, it should have been with checks not Poland. Poland in my own view was the final tripwire.
This will sound daft to many but I stick by my own beliefs. Once we had drawn that line we had to do the right thing. My own view, is we shouldnt have gone to war over Poland. Now Ill get flamed. But Ive looked at Poland before the war and especially at history in 1937 from yearbooks published in that time. The programs on race were hardly much different from others at the time. Going to war to defend a nation we in our own nation had nothing in common with or would revile the same policies if we knew of them today seems to me more dishonourable than hounourable. Checkslovakia was where we should have made the stand and met our obligations. Not Poland. But I was not around then and am speaking from hindsight.
The article redfan has put up is out of date today. Yes it had some meaning 2 years ago. but even then, the media were making too much of the parade thing. The parades for homecoming troops were if anything not happening because of the govt and forces higher ranking fears of the troops being jeered or insulted due to the unpopularity of the Iraq war and the feelings in some at the time still.
But as usual our betters should have known better themselves. They and not the British public were the ones that didnt want parades. It was the British public over the years who have virtually demanded the homecoming parades.
Again another example of them getting it completely wrong in my view.
There was a case a few months ago in a town quite close to me, whereby the BBC aired a story of RAF guys being told not to wear uniforms in town. The media went on a spree...all acorss tv and papers. How can this happen in Britain to our armed forces, why should they not be allowed to wear their uniforms in public? A storm in a teacup, but once media had hold of it, that was it.
Apparantly RAF guys were being threatened by locals in town, and a large amount of immigrants etc etc....
Total rubbish. The decision was made locally on base by commanding officer who seems to have exceeded their fairy tale imagination.
The British public had never been allowed to show their appreciation fully precisely because the troops came home, went home, went on leave, went back. No parades. But this was a political decision not a public one.
Sorry redfan, your on to a loser with the statement on the US would have lost without the British. The war was won as an allied effort, each playing their part, some one could argue playing a bigger part...in blood at least...good ole Joe..but without America, Britain was never going to release Europe from Nazi or even now into what if...Soviet hold if no America.
America was never going to release Europe from Nazi grip without the British island base.
And Churchill was never going to survive Halifax to do his we shall fight them on the beaches without Gort ignoring all and sundry and legging it, Good old Gort then....Ill get me coat...Gort won ww2 for the allies...
Redfan, the allies won in Europe because they were just that allies. No one side needed the other at certain stages to survive on their own after a point. But no one side could have done it on their own. Although maybe the French would now be speaking Russian and we Brits would have to use it as a business language too.
Slightly going off topic, but I believe that if teh Soviet Union managed to take control over all of Europe, it would probably have collapsed sooner than it did.
Says who,? I and many of the other members here have the utmost respect for the veterans from every nation in ww2, whether they are the AMerican, British or the Germans. I personnaly would love to meet a German ww2 veteran from any of the services, to see there side of the war, there opinions and beliefs, there war stories.
There is no lack of respect for any of the veterns, as stated before, it is merely a biased way of thinking in terms of there own country. You being an AMerican and living in America, are constantly shown clips from the History Channel and what not about the struggle that America faced in ww2, just like here in Australia. We are shown many clips and documentaries about the ANZACS and in many ways they are biased.
About the ww1 Veteran dieing, who says the Germans didn't care? I didn't hear about it, but I didn't hear about the British ww1 or even any American vetearns dieing either. I do however here about the veterans from my country dieing and it will be the same in every country, and you do not know what happens in every country around the world so perhaps you should lay off them.
Good point, it's the very reason we'd never have become fascist or communist, all that strutting around in uniforms we just find amusing.
Doesn't mean we don't support our brave lads and lasses on the ground though, despite what extremist activists might think and say.
Personally whenever I see a soul in uniform I've over having a chat, sussing what they're doing and making sure they understand just how much we support them.
My son in law served with Bravo 1/94 FA in Iraq. While stationed in Germany my daughter tried to participate or contribute through volunteering to help out both while in Idar-Oberstein or at the bast in Strasbourg. for doing these tasks her time didn't go unheralded and received a President invite to Washington D.C. in January...even though i am off topic i will post her invite she received as, who knows when or if she'll be invited back to the White House for another swearing in of a US President
That is amazing mate, but completely of the subject and in no way proves anything to do with the lack of respect for other countries soldiers. IN fact it just backs up the opening posts, showing how the Americans show their respect for there soldiers wives.
Whether off subject or not...I do that lots.....definately worth sharing. Proud moment for your family I guess.
Well done to her.
What the dreadful treatment of this war hero tells us about compassion in the NHS today
By Harriet Sergeant
Last updated at 10:13 AM on 01st January 2009
Stripped of his dignity: John Platt
John Platt was used to facing life-threatening situations with courage. In World War II he won the Distinguished Service Order for his leadership in one of the fiercest battles of the Italian campaign.
But nothing, even in his wartime experience, prepared him for the treatment he received from the NHS.
Aged 101, he was sent away in a taxi to die by Salisbury District Hospital, wearing only a nappy and a set of ill-fitting pyjamas. He was discharged unable to feed himself and clutching a bag of soiled clothing.
He was confused and incontinent after a spell in hospital that had left him, according to his family, 'degraded and humiliated'.
During his five days at the hospital, someone stepped on his hearing aid, his false teeth went missing and soiled pyjamas piled up unwashed in a locker.
His daughter-in-law said: 'All that he had at the end of his 101 years was his dignity and they took that away from him.'
What kind of institution does that to an old man? What kind of people are forcing a dying patient to undergo an hour's taxi ride in someone else's pyjamas and a nappy tied so tight around his waist it left red marks? Did they think they'd done a good day's work when they went home that night?
If criticised will they, like the social workers of Baby P, complacently point to targets reached, meetings attended and boxes ticked? Why has compassion, which after all costs nothing, suddenly become the scarcest commodity in the NHS?
Niall Dickson, chief executive of the King's Fund, an independent health Think Tank, believes the NHS is fast losing its caring attitude towards patients. He said: 'I have very little doubt that we've seen deterioration in the level of compassion that is shown by staff to patients. 'If we can't get compassion into our healthcare, the system is failing.'
Sadly, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the system is indeed failing, at all levels. Take, as another example, the case reported by one nurse at a packed meeting at the Royal College of Nursing last summer.
When one of her patients had died, managers rang the staff nurse in charge four times within two hours to see if the bed was free. 'On the final call, one of them said: "Haven't you got rid of that body yet?" ' the nurse recalled. 'It was disgraceful. When a patient dies, they are entitled to respect and dignity.'
Indeed they are. But often they get neither. So what is going wrong? Dickson points to shorter stays and sicker patients putting pressure on staff and turning hospitals into 'medical factories'. He blames 'very difficult situations' rather than staff suddenly 'turning into nasty people'.
But it is not just the sheer numbers of patients that is creating this situation. It is the culture of the NHS itself.
During a year-long investigation of the NHS that I undertook a little while ago, I met many medical staff who gave their patients outstanding care. But, sadly, they proved to be the exception. I saw far more examples of indifference and disorganisation.
As in any institution, from the NHS to your local restaurant, not everyone gives good service all of the time. What sets the NHS apart is its refusal to give anyone the authority to put that right. It is shocking to discover that no one person has the power to oversee all elements of a patient's care, pull them together and take responsibility for that person's wellbeing.
So, for example, there is little incentive for a nurse to check an old lady for bedsores except her own humanity and professionalism. Nor is there any punishment if she forgets or does not bother.
As one nurse at the meeting on dignity observed: 'I have seen staff doing full sets of observations on patients without saying anything to them. It is really hard to imagine how you could do that, but it happens.'
Aged 101, Mr Platt was sent away in a taxi to die, wearing only a nappy and a set of ill-fitting pyjamas
Over and over again, matrons and sisters complained it was impossible to discipline a nurse for incompetence, let alone for unkindness. In the no-blame culture of the NHS, the emphasis is on making sure it is no one's fault.
Modern management is meant to 'nurture' its employees - even if they have proven woefully inadequate. The errant nurse is offered training, supervision and given chance after chance. This can go on for a year.
'In the meantime,' complained a former matron, 'patients are going through her hands and suffering.' Or as one consultant said: 'We are meant to be the caring profession. But sometimes we put caring for each other above caring for our patients.'
A nurse's training is another bar to compassion, as it has become more theoretical and less about the practicalities of patient care. Twenty years ago nursing turned itself into an academic profession.
Nurses became embedded in a power struggle against doctors, the NHS and even patients. Woe betide anyone who asked them to perform any duty that undermined their status.
An Irish sister complained that her recently qualified nurses were horrified to discover that 90 per cent of their time 'is doing things for the patient' rather than 'sitting in front of a computer'.
She went on: 'I see nurses walk past a patient ignoring his distress-This lack of consistency and authority can have dire consequences for the most vulnerable patients. I saw this for myself staying overnight in hospital to be with a dying friend.
He had slipped into unconsciousness, but at about 6am began to moan with pain. No one came near. The moans turned into screams. The nurses at the nurses' station did not glance his way.
Finally, I approached and asked for pain relief. One looked briefly at my friend. 'He's not my patient,' she said. Where was his nurse, I persisted. 'She's giving a bath and cannot be disturbed,' she reproved.
It was only by becoming angry that I forced her to fetch something to ease what turned out to be his last few hours. I wondered if she would have treated a howling dog better. It is bad enough being ill and in pain. To be abandoned or treated unkindly is almost insupportable.
In fairness, the Government has responded to public concern by listing compassion as one of six core values in its recent draft constitution of the NHS.
It is developing ways of measuring compassion and has even appointed a dignity ambassador, Sir Michael Parkinson. But like the 'Superbug Tsar', another NHS government initiative, will it actually achieve anything or is it a PR sop?
Lizzie McLennan of Help The Aged pointed out that health and care providers 'are assessed on lots of things, but dignity and compassion are shamefully not included'.
Until the caring professions really start to care again, we have no right to call ourselves a civilised nation.
What the dreadful treatment of this war hero tells us about compassion in the NHS today | Mail Online
Dg raised this earlier. Shameful
i was in the same hospiital for 13 months,8 weeks bedrest to start.i was turned every 4 hours,no sores.
i had a named sister and staff nurse.i can assure everyone i was treated with the utmost respect and compassion.a wonderful team in my experiance,cheers.
p.s,they saved my life.thank god for my national health service,and i never paid a penny.
Thats the problem though 4th Wilts, not all treatment is consistent at any one time.
We can all quote horror stories and good stories too.
I have had the good fortune to be treated in both service and NHS establishments for my injury.
The service establishments were exceptional in all cases at the time.
I have had reason to write many times to thank various NHS providers too. Wards and services.
I have also seen the other side.
As a fairly young man awaiting an op for service injury on NHS was placed in a stroke ward, and after 2 days dishcharged myself. In wrong ward for starters, seeing the treatment the other patients were getting disgusted me too and I complained to no effect apart from a cursory letter of apology for my own placement and not the treatment I had seen other Nhs patines being subjected to.
I was then taken to RAF Halton for operation.
I would not wish that first ward on any one. It was lacking in basic nursing standards and care. Difficult though these patients were they deserved better.
As you say though this is not the case thru the whole NHS,and this is the problem. No consistiancy. This gentleman was quite obviously treated in a manner we would not want our own relatives to be treated like.
I'm not getting on the case of the entire NHS because it is a good system in theory and I'm sure you get some wonderful people there. But whoever was involved in this case deserve a prison sentence.
No human should be treated in this manner, but to make it even worse he's a WWII veteran. A man who fought and could have died for this country in the face of the enemy. And after 101 years on Earth and being in the greatest conflict for his country how is he treat, with extra kind service to help him? no. OK then given at least humane treatment? no. He's sent home to die in a soiled nappy. Who ever treated him like this are scum and should be punished for being such bastards.
i agree that this bloke deserved the best treatment possible.
i wonder why this vets family did not have him moved to a different hospital?.cheers.
Exactly what I said in the other related thread. First and foremost families should be responsible for watching the treatment of their own.
I'd disagree with this, in my experience it is far more a question of the British attitude than any kind of dislike or hatred of soldiers or the war. I have never been on tour, never done anything particularly exciting or useful (yet) however I do travel in uniform quite often and have on several occaisions been had members of the public etc ask me to pass on peoples best wishes to guys who are 'out there.' People are generally quite accepting and encouraging though in quite an understated 'British' way. It isn't quite like the US (a few mates of mine went over there to train and talked about getting free drinks, tickets to sports matches and so on, when I was in Canada we bumped into an American chap who refused to let us buy a drink all night once he saw my mates military ID poking out of his wallet).
I think troops are respected, I don't think people are particularly aware of what is going on in the world but that is nothing new, far more to do with peoples attitudes than anything else.
I do Enjoy the Netherlands effort in the wars at the moment. Much respect for them troops.
How many different forums do you go into? And how do you find the time?
Only 3 a58.....this one, a general britiish history one..as I have an interest in all things 1066 and napoleonic and British history and a uk british military forum...
No I tell a lie...I sometimes visit ww2 talk.
Time? I'm presently on crutches waiting an op mate...this occasion since before xmas is first time I've had time to since last June I think...I come and go in batches mate.
Plus the lovely Kate...my sheep sheapherd and turkey farming other half looks like having me busy for rest of life...so I wont be here much longer I'm afraid...