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Che Guevara ,40 Years from his death.

Discussion in 'Non-World War 2 History' started by sinissa, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Just out of interest... do they still do this? The last report I heard about was several years ago. This could easily mean that it just isn't exciting news any more, particularly on UK-based networks...

    Also, friends of mine who have been to Cuba have said that the people that they talked to over there are very pro-Castro and very anti-America.
    Both are understandable. Castro is charasmatic and has good propaganda (Stalin was loved by much of his population), and America has spent a lot of effort trying to screw up Cuba (sugar embargo anyone?). They do admit that life is not easy in Cuba. Why? Because the economy is screwed. Guess who is (with some justification) the target of that wrath?

    It would be interesting running some stats on the people who have escaped / do try to escape. Are they from one particular group (political supporters of the old government, upper-class people, etc etc) or are they people who have fallen foul of the authorities, or are they a complete mix? My cynical side says that these stats are certainly gathered by US immigration (where possible) and that they are not available to the public because they disprove the implicit American propaganda that Cubans from all walks of life are fleeing Cuba because it is terrible there. ;)

    Also, in regards to the whole 'crossing shark-infested waters' charge, I would like to suggest that the pragmatic approach to the Cuban immigrants/refugees the USA takes (wet feet / dry feet) encourages them to undertake this hazardous journey. Without the promise of being allowed to stay if they actually get ashore, and with the knowledge that the US authorities will automatically send you back, how many people would have attempted it?
     
  2. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    And bolivia is in betther shape? Drug Lords paradise created by CIA. And is it that counter to US constitution,in Country who proclamed to be "democratic" and breake they own constitution regulary and Iternation laws?

    How bigg is Democracy there? A one exsample. U come in Serbia and scream in middle of Belgrade im Communist! Im capitalist! Im from US! Im Muslim ffs! so what?

    And u go to ur boss in US and say: Boss im a communist. Do u still keep ur job?
     
  3. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    Yeah, you still keep your job, because the boss will likely enough burst out laughing. He'll keep you around just for making his day. :D
     
  4. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    In US ppl was put in Jail for acusations to be communist,and if i remember good,one couple was excecuted under acusation to be commy spys.
     
  5. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean the days of McCarthyism, in the 1950s? Back then the taint of Communism was more than enough to ruin a career.

    It always strikes me as an irony that it operated under the 'House Un-American Activities Committee' which of course meant that the committee itself was undertaking Un-American activities... ;)

    However, is such anti-Commie feeling still rampant?
     
  6. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    then you missed the point :D
     
  7. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    U tell me but it is not desirable in US to proclame like that ( u will be much betther if u proclame urself as satanist it is more...acceptable then communist) .

    And dont get me wrong,im right-center oriented but just because Communism generaly failed in world by human nature to be corrupt ,and not by failed organisation. If,somewhere communism work on right way,it can be best society organisation known by now. True democracy does not exsist. Only true form of democracy is anarchy.
     
  8. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Hey sinissa, bet you never thought we'd be on (more-or-less) the same side in an argument! ;)

    I don't really know much about modern US attitudes to Communism, beyond the fact that most Americans that I have discussed it with acts as though they are still regurgitating the old anti-Commie dogma from 1917...

    Not quite. True democracy is where everybody takes a vote on every decision. Which is so horribly impractical that it makes North Korea look like a progressive, efficient nation. ;)
     
  9. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    sinnesa ,westernm democracys are far from perfect but compared to to any communist state that ever existed they are wonderful , this is why people have been running away to the west for the last 60 years ,rule of law ,freedom of speech ,religion ,press, movement ,assembly ..these are not just words in the west sinnesa ,these are facts of life ..we belive every man has the right to life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness ,we hold these rights to be self evident ...now again , stalin ,mao and later pol pot were mass murderers of a scale that literaly buggars the imagination ..we in the west very much fear and loathe mass murderers ..are you with me so far?...ok , the american communist party we now know for a fact (post soviet collapse ) was being run by their masters at the kremlin ..alger hiss WAS a spy , ethel and julius rosenberg WERE spys ,christ the head of british intellegence was a fekin mole , the commies were very good at spying , much better than us and we rightly feared them ...the communists in america were traitors scheming the desruction of the place your wretched people were trying to escape to ..THE US ,UK AND WESTERN EUROPE were all better places to live , by any criteria than any marxist leninist state ..if we put aside the sea of innocents buried by tito ,stalin ,mao and castro we are still left with grindeing oppression ,corruption and fear , little better than facsiest oppression ..i dont know what the future holds but the death of world communism is the most important event of my lifetime .marx had a good idea on paper ,it just isnt practical in real life ,democracy is better .come to america sometime and see for yourself .or anywhere in western europe for that matter...
     
  10. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    The only Yugoslavs who were escaping or trying to were ex. nazi collaborators or super communists who supported Stalin against Tito. Later life was quite good acctualy and if you were a malcontent (speaking to loudly agains CP) you could simply get a passport and they even waved good bye (or good riddance) and you could join gastarbeiters in W.Germany. Usual procedure was to get you to prison for a couple of months ( they had dirt on everone) and suggestion on the lines:" if you don't like it here you could try the golden west."
    Woody in your difficoult to read post (man use caps when appropriate) you forgot to include our beloved marchall Josip Broz - Tito. During the war and especcialy in 1945 his crew turned my country ( Slovenia) into one big mass grave. Most of those returned by the Brits was killed here ( Ustashas, Chetniks, Ljotichevci, Nedichevci , Domobranci....).
     
  11. Man

    Man New Member

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    Norway had Communist traitors during the 70s well that were scheming to overthrow the government, meeting with the Chinese, collecting weapons, et cetera. Luckily it was just a fringe movement and never caught on. The taint of communism/extreme leftism remains in many people still --- anarchists, socialists, et cetera.

    Jailing them would have made them martyrs and more people would have joined their cause. They were pretty much left to their own devices and the majority recognized them for what they were.

    My experiences with Communism and its effects in Africa have made me loathe it very intensly indeed...
     
  12. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    I have no use for Communism, and I believe that those who think it's a great system would sing a very different tune if they ever wound up having to live under a Communist government for any length of time.
     
  13. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    I have discussed Communism as a theory with various devotees of it. All do acknowledge that it has so far entirely failed to be put into practice. The actual core theory does sound jolly utopian, until you consider things like how it tends to fail to take account of human nature, how it tends to be a bit blinkered towards interaction with other systems (did you know that true Communism would be a cashless society?), and how it would require individual workers to be more productive than under Capitalism, just to allow for the provision of luxury goods (this was reluctantly admitted ;) ).

    It would work great in small communes of enthusiasts though.
     
  14. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    The way you make it seem, anyone in the West is a happy, rich, free citizen, whereas anyone living under Communism is either an enslaved mongrel or simply a corpse. Of course, there's no point in trying to defend Communism as a workable system because history has amply shown that it's not. However, your representation of the system does no justice to the actual situation for the common person seeking a way for his country to be ruled.

    It is quite simply not up to the US to decide how all other countries should be governed. According to the principle of self-determination, every nation gets to choose for itself. During the second half of the 20th century, the US has repeatedly violated this principle to prevent Communist states from being founded - ignoring the fact that Communism itself counted a great many supporters both in the countries in question and even in the West. The very system of democracy brought Communism very close to the doorstep in Western Europe, since Communist parties in France and Italy regularly recieved over 30% of the votes in national elections. Of course, as Corp just pointed out, all these people would probably be much disillusioned if they were to end up in a Communist state, but that doesn't mean Capitalism was the obvious, unchallenged system for all countries other than those the Red Threat had gotten its hands on.

    The truth is that the Cold War was not one of Good versus Evil but one between two competing ways of organizing society, one of which turned out to be more succesful at maintaining both popular support and prosperity. This success is the reason for its appeal to refugees from the other system. It is easy for us to look past Soviet propaganda, but when will people in the West finally look past American propaganda as well?
     
  15. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    .in the 1930s and right through the 60s many people in the west openly or secretly supported and admired the ideals of marx and lenin .among the intelligencia after the horrors of the great war ,it seemed a very workable and polliticaly correct way to run society , a classless society where everyone works hard for the common good and no one is above anyone else ..all property to be owned in common , all decisions made by commities composed of common workers ect ...

    ..if i were a poor starveling peasant farm worker being lorded over by some titled aristocrat or worse yet , a foreign born colonial master , im sure i would have been inclined to embrace the teachings of karl marx too . on paper and even with the great( potempkin ) reality presented by the soviets and chairman mao , the system looks pretty darn good ... my dad , a us arny officer, no less used to tell me when i was a kid , "sure ,maos a tough and harsh leader , but at least there are no more famines in china " well it turns out my dad was very wrong ,there was no more REPORTING of famines in china ,or in fact, of ANY bad news in any communist country .
    .. the real horror of communism imo , is that even to report a little bad news or let slip a critical comment within ones own house at the dinner table with ones own immediate family , was a very very foolhardy thing to do ...and roel , MILLIONS of ordinary people lost their lives for makeing this simple mistake . in russia ,in china , in hungary ,east germany ,poland , romania ect . a teacher , a co worker , a long time freind or neighbor , a spouse or lover , a son or nephew ..being denounced for counter revolutionary thoughts could very well ruin ones whole day and it could happen to anyone ,anytime and there was no defense , a knock on the door in the wee small hours ,an arrest and poof ...gone ... " sign this confession and we wont arrest your wife and parents "
    ..a north korean pilot who later defected in his mig 15 , said that it got to the point in his squadron , where he began denouncing other pilots in pre emptive strikes before they could denounce him . better safe than sorry i guess...
    . roel , if this isnt the very face of evil , than i dont know what is ..
     
  16. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    Now wrote what US, (capitalist in generaly) done as countermesures? West was not inoccent child in that story also.
     
  17. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    capitalist counter measures to what ? sry ,i dont understand..
     
  18. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    I think your anecdote of what your father told you illustrates my point very well. We now know the horrors of the failure of communism, but that doesn't mean the system had no appeal to people during the Cold War. They didn't know what we know now. While the US was out and about preventing other nations from making their own decisions, many people truly believed Communism was the preferrable system - perhaps because the Communists weren't the ones stationing troops and nuclear weapons within their borders, turning them into potential warzones, to name just one thing.

    As for your "face of evil" comment, it truly tires me to see international politics described in such terms, since there's obviously never going to be any state or government that would describe itself as evil, only the enemy. Calling a political system "evil" says where you stand, not the system you are referring to. The evils of Communism that you mention are what the totalitarian rulers of these states thought was necessary for their self-preservation. Theirs is a system that failed horribly and cost millions of lives, but when it comes down to basics the intentions of Communism are just as "good" as those of Capitalism.
     
  19. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    Just a little anecdote about cold war or how the little things can realy mess up. Everyone rembers JFK's speach in which he proudly declared himself a dougnout ( "Ich bin ein berliner") :cool: . In the same visit to Berlin he hinted that new German borders were unfair ( meaning eastern border with Poland). Guess the result? Poles who never realy liked the Soviets got the point and became their stounchest supportes in the 60's and 70's.

    About denouncing bussines in the east. That was simptomatic for realy hardcore regimes (not all were the same mind you) in others like Yugoslavia it wa not realy that bad. Much depended on personalities who were in power at the time and level of insecurity these persons felt.
     
  20. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    Disclaimer:
    The Trabant was not a product of capitalism.
    Can you spell communist-manufactured junk?
    It's spelled T-R-A-B-A-N-T.

    Tim
     

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