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For the motherland? Stalingrad.

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by tommy tater, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. tommy tater

    tommy tater Member

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    At the battle of Stalingrad where the soviets all for the motherland & charging machine guns? I have seen documentaries on uktv history & the history channel but both have very different views. UKTV history says that the soviets where all like for the motherland!!!! & running with one rifle between two. But on the history channel there was a progamme about stalingrad when it showed all troops brilliantly armed with smart tactics & with german troops charging soviet machine guns

    so what am I supposed to believe? Im not the best on topics like the eastern front which is right? or where both right in their on different way?
     
  2. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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  3. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello tommy tater,

    I would say that you can believe both versions, depending on their time of occurance and place.
    At a certain point the Russians were holding meerly a bridgehead and some parts of northern Stalingrad, and they pushed in everything they had regardless of equipment being available for their troops or not. The units that conducted the encirclement manouver outside of Stalingrad and later pushed into the city were well or far better equipped.

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  4. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    HI;
    Two books I recommend would be "Stalingrad" by Michael K. Jones and "Enemy at the Gate" by william Craig (written in 1973 and no resemblance to the film of the same name);
    WWII and other Book Reviews: Stalingrad by Michael K. Jones
    What happened at Stalingrad was that the Red Army grew up. "Every man a general" was Chuikov's mantra inviting the rank and file to get inventive. And they did...hence the Invaders' complaints about "gangster tactics" used by Red Army men-sniperism, ambush, booby trap warfare, underground warfare, sneak attacks, hand to hand combat, the artfull use of grenades... The Germans characterized it as "Rattenkreig" "a war of rats" and so it was. But it worked. With the improved tactics came a rise in morale and a steely determination to fight the enemy to the bitter end. Or maybe it was the other way around... "For us there is no land beyond the Volga." Vasily Zaitsev 1942.
    JeffinMNUSA
     
  5. DanIO

    DanIO Member

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    I don't think I've read either of those books, but I might pick them up if I ever see them.
     
  6. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Agreed, post 1942 the 'human wave' seems to fade and you see a far more professional Army emerge, with better communications and support. Despite this the myth of the 'human wave' remained partly because of German propaganda and partly the fact that due to the Iron Curtain we in the west seemed to get most of our information from disgruntled German generals who were of course beaten by superior Soviet numbers and betrayal by than their own side rather than being out manoeuvred and out fought. That said from talking to Soviet veterans I can't help thinking that many of the tactics they used could easily appear to be a 'human wave' despite being rather more complex. The Red Army was very adept at what it called 'maskirovka' which roughly translated is camouflage though a bit more complex, making it look like an attack was being formulated in one area whilst disguising movements in another. When you consider that a particular favorite was to use camouflage and darkness to move as close to German positions as possible undetected before emerging in large numbers much closer than the Germans expected (sometimes without even an artillery bombardment) you can see why so many German soldiers felt they were being swamped by human waves.
     
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  7. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello Stefan,

    I would tend to interprete the German expression of "Waves" post 1942 more due to the setup of the echalons during an attack. Due to outnumbering the Germans by far the ongoing attacks (Wave by Wave) still kept the term alive even though the Russian tactics and equipment had improved tremendously from 1943 onward.

    That the Nazi propaganda was into using these terms of waves and hordes doesn't necessarily describe the Russian tactics sufficiently or historically correct.

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  8. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    The best documentrys to watch is the BATTLEFIELD series but remember you can not beat a good book on the subject matter. ;)
     
  9. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    True, however I was referring more specifically to the means by which the initial wave would move into place and then appear suddenly to swamp a position. Interestingly enough it is very similar to the tactics used by the British on the Somme except the Russians then ran at the enemy rather than strolling forward slowly.
     
  10. wtid45

    wtid45 Ace

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    Looking at the low posts on the B&P THREAD YOU SOMETIMES WONDER:(
     
  11. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    The Soviet Hordes? Well it could be that the growing strength and sophistication of the Artillery arm made an impression on the Germans. MK Jones has a few quotes from 62nd Army defenders stating that it was the artillery on the East Bank that kept the Germans from crushing their positions. Glantz states that by mid 1943 Soviet artillery had achieved a 3:1 advantage against the German from the Baltic to the Black Seas. This advantage went as high as 16:1 later on and in some frontages. "The Red Hordes" might be a mythologized impression the German defenders developed after being hammered by increasingly devastating ARTY barrages followed up by what were actually rather modest armored and infantry attacks.
    JeffinMNUSA
     
  12. Relative of a B-24 co-pilot

    Relative of a B-24 co-pilot Member

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    and also it had Germans on one floor of a buliding and Russians below that level and sometimes they wouldn't even know it (just think that one guy going down stairs for something would get a big Russian hug more like shot to the head but thats OK) also if you didn't keep your head down in that battle a sniper would shoot you it was hard fighting for the Russians I don't know how they did it
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I think it was in the M JonesĀ“ book mentioned that Luftwaffe did not have plane resources directed at destroying the Soviet boats etc reserves crossing Volga to the city itself. Left to the German artillery to deal with the problem? I know Richthofen was in real problems in covering the area with his planes as suddenly during 1942 he had to cope with the area from Stalingrad to Caucasus...
     
  14. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Red Army tactics during the Battle of Stalingrad was, by most accounts, sophisticated and professional. Of particular interest to me is Chuikov's invention of Storm Groups--small infantry units of 36 men equipped extensively with machine-pistols or heavy weapons such as mortars, machineguns and and anti-tank guns. Russian infantry would blast holes in the walls between adjacent buildings then move through them, prefering to stay under cover than risking exposure in open movement in the streets. One of the more incredible tactics I read about is how three Storm Groups would be used together a German stronghold, the first group would attack from the top and work its way down, while the second group set up immediately behind them with heavy weapons to beat back German attempts to reinforce the position, so that the Russians would begin to suppress the Germans with heavy weapons before the last German was cleared from their position. A third group would be held in reserve to reinforce the attack or replenish the first group as situation demands. No sir, not a heck lot of human wave attacks, the Russians was outnumbered in Stalingrad =)
     
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  15. SMLE shooter

    SMLE shooter Member

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    The idea was every other soldier had a gun, the others had a stripper clip. The russians charged German machine guns . Watch Enemy at the Gates
     
  16. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Rather then relying on an incorrect and inaccurate movie made for entertainment ,and not as a documentary, perhaps try actually reading the several books out there on the subject.
     
  17. Firefoxy

    Firefoxy Dishonorably Discharged

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    You are right about the Books, my books are right on track with the ww2 information while, the History channel and documentries protrays alot of false ww2 information more than true informaion on ww2.
     
  18. Firefoxy

    Firefoxy Dishonorably Discharged

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    While we are on the topic of Russian soildiers here, i know there was female Russian soildiers during ww2, but were they ever female soildiers deployed at the front lines of starlingrad. If so, Did they ever come in contact with German soildiers?
     
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Are you say you are basing your knowledge in History on Hollywood? :rolleyes:

    Here are some comments on the movie. Sorry, it will be a long read.

    http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/206/108/lang,en/

    Read here Snipers Paradise

    [​IMG]

    The Night Wiches at Stalingrad

    [​IMG]

    WW II ACE STORIES

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Firefoxy

    Firefoxy Dishonorably Discharged

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    Excellent, i knew that they did deploye females but not in real combat.
    America and Britain should of deployed there female soildier's in Front on combat during ww2 like the Russians did.
     

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