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German tank ace Otto Carius remarks in his book Tigers in the mud.

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Fury 1991, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    He claims in his book that what was left of the German military could have easily defeated the Red army with the help of American logistics. He mentions that all the Yanks would have had to do is provide logistics. That the Yanks would not even had to get involved in combat. It would have been a easy victory. I was under the impression the Germans did not have much left to wage war in 45? This is not intended to be a what if thread.
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    They did have a fair number of vehicles but troop wise they were pretty well at the bottom of the barrel, at least that's my impression. A lot of the troops they did have at that point were not in the ideal time range either.
     
  3. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    I have always read they were down to old men and children. I have a hard time seeing them defeat the Red horde by themselves. I was not aware they had a good deal of equipment left.
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Pretty much what I've read.
    Well the red's weren't in much better shape.
    Mostly sitting at the factories as they didn't have enough transport or fuel to move it.
     
  5. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    I think Carius is wrong. I have not read the book, but I think the German army was at the end of its rope in 1945. The addition of US logistics would have made little difference. The book Eastern Inferno disputes all that he said. I suspect the Americans were in no hurry to help the Germans, despite Carius' assertions.
     
  6. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Well, that was Carius's opinion. After fighting the Soviets for many years he probably couldn't let the war go. Many Germans couldn't figure out why Americans didn't realize that the Soviets were going to be our next real enemy and to join them in the fight. In a way they were right, we eventually did square off against the Soviets but Germans seemed unable to see things through anyone else's eyes. They were terribly ego-centric back then. Somehow they couldn't understand that after fighting and sustaining about 300,000 casualties from them, we weren't in any mood to help them in another, even bloodier conflict.

    I've read his book. It's not a bad read and gives a good insight into a Tiger Bn. and how it was to use them in battle. However, I got the impression he was a pugnacious and opinionated little fellow.
     
  7. tomflorida

    tomflorida Member

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    I don't think that even the US Army, in 1945, could have stopped the reds, let alone what was left of the German Army. The Soviets had thousands of T34 tanks, thousands of fighters and bombers, thousands of heavy equipment, plenty of fuel, food, clothing and millions of men, many battle harden. No matter what you put in front of a tidal wave, it will overcome it.
     
  8. ptimms

    ptimms Member

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    But the Soviets had no nukes, end result no contest.
     
  9. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    If one watches Laurence Rees' documentary seies 'War Of The Century' made in 1995, one of the striking things is the way in which German veterans of the Eastern Front still felt disbelief - almost a sense of injustice - that the Russians had beaten them. Made you realise that the stereotype of the 'Slavic/Mongol subhuman' was very much ingrained into that generation.
     
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  10. ptimms

    ptimms Member

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    Oh and Carius is talking cobblers. According to Jentz on 15/3/45 the following operational AFV's faced the Soviets.

    314 Stugs, 345 Mk IV's, 189 Stug IV L/70's, 387 Panthers and 125 Tigers.

    The mighty SSLAH had 14 Pz IV's and 18 Panthers. Wiking had 3 Pz IV's and 12 Panthers, 24th Panzer had 11 AFV's of which 6 were operational. Different figures exist but the Soviets had about 4100 Tanks and AFV's. The situation for artillery and infantry was worse for the Germans. All the fuel and ammo in the world wouldn't save them.
     
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  11. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    In january 1945,the Soviets had 7.2 million men fronttroops,12700 tanks and AG,19000 combat aircraft,55000 guns,280000 trucks ,while they had heavy irrevocable losses in 1945(800000),it was out of the question that the Germans could stop/defeat them with logistical support from the US .
     
  12. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    He was only a tank commander, his knowledge of the combat capability of the German army outside of his own unit would be limited to say the least.
     
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  13. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    Oh, we Americans had all those things too except for the T-34, of course. We would have ruled the skies but it would have been difficult to stop the Soviets.
     
  14. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Oh, and how much support would such a war have with the American and British publics, not to mention the war-weary soldiers who would have thought they were about to go home?
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    We've done the West vs the Soviets several times on other threads. Let's not go there on this one.
     
  16. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    But how many did they have sitting at factories and marshaling yards?
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Look at the state of those Factories & marshalling yards though. And more importantly, who's Army was sitting right on top of many of them.
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr70/jigamy5/Jagdpanther_FactoryColour_sml2.jpg
    (A few postwar Panthers were squeezed out by REME from partially completed production line wrecks (including the Bovington example), but enough to face a nation on the brink of ISIII production? No. The handfuls used by the French postwar maybe give some indication of the real usable amount of that particular machine, and those were never really in the best of mechanical/readiness states - stopgap stuff.)


    Carius's boast is a pretty empty one. Like much of his book it can only be taken as the face-value opinion of a single man on the ground - pinch of salt required (along with a constant awareness of an outlook very much influenced by Nazi propaganda of his time).
    Germany was beaten. Across the board. Thoroughly.

    ~A
     
  18. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    Otto says they still could have worked around those issues that are obvious in that picture. :D
     
  19. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    It is amazing how just having crewed a Tiger tank elevates your opinion!
    Simply having served in Tiger means you are an ace, an expert, a hero and a white Knight fighting to defend western civilisation against the 'Red Hordes'.
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    OTOH,General G (who is biding his time,repairing his Tiger III)would argue that as Carius was mentioned on page 366 of the memoires of his holines(=von Manstein),every thing Carius was saying (after 2 pints of Munich beer) is the gospel .
     

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