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Got Panzers? Panzer for buy?

Discussion in 'Armor and Armored Fighting Vehicles' started by wehrmacht502nd, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Excellent post, vonP ! :cool:

    Rather as with warbirds, it's fascinating to view the machinations of this 'market'.

    As for me, I'll stick to my plastic 21st Century tanks.......:eek:
     
  2. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    Originally by Von Poop;
    "Have you seen the vehicle in the flesh? Or spoken to the chaps that built it?
    Really nice blokes, apparently having a bloody good time, and with a surprising amount of mechanical and innovative skill. Their attitude was refreshingly non-nerdy.
    Didn't ask at the time, but the size looks about right. We suspect that photo on the Kent News site that did the rounds is a bit of an optical illusion, and the chap on the front being a man-mountain adds to the effect."

    I'm sure they are nice blokes, and having a good time, and possessing of some mechanical skill.

    The size is a little off, but not excessively, a 432 is 1.1m shorter than a Pz III approx and 20cm narrower.

    What I disliked about what they have done is that they have destroyed a cold war armoured vehicle which although it may not currently be rare, will become so if people keep doing things like this just to 'have a bloody good time'. Just because we are currently at a stage in history where the physical evidence of the cold war appears less exciting than that of WW2 does not mean that future generations will feel the same way. Even if they do, we should allow them the chance to decide for themselves. If these men had done the same thing to a Pz III in order to make a relatively unconvincing Whippet tank, I would hope you would be equally annoyed.

    I was not trying to knock their enthusiasm, merely their Schliemann-like pursuit of history.

    This attitude is one of the many reasons why so many historic armoured vehicles are rare or no longer in existence, and it would be nice if we could prevent it happening wherever possible.
     
  3. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    I guess it's a matter of taste and personal opinion.

    I certainly don't want to knock anyone's enthusiasm, but for me, at Beltring in recent years, the replica 'StugIII', albeit a fine effort, just left me cold...

    [​IMG]



    Wjhereas the Panther, engineless and busted suspension and all....

    [​IMG]


    ....sure looks ' real ' to me and I love it ! :cool:
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    They don't do a lot for me either.
    But! I appreciate why they're there.

    Last real Pz.III I recall being sold (Wheatcroft one? can't remember) shifted in 2004/5 for c.0.5M Euros.
    432s really are ten a penny, and there will never be enough people chopping 'em into something else to really threaten the pool. Demand for film work & just plain fun will always make 'em a good choice for conversion. Check the 432 registers - there's no orgy of destruction going on there.

    Scratch-building replicas is only realistic for the truly talented and mega-resourced, (have you seen the fantastic Grundy Carden-Loyd? You'll like it: Carden Loyd MG Carrier)... or the slightly loopy: YouTube - Tiger-Panzer - Mein Mann, sein Hobby und ich
    There's a Cent converted to resemble a WW1 tank doing the rounds, it's kind of funny looking, but good fun, and pays it's way.

    The main thing is probably that none of these cold warriors were destined for any sort of running restoration; the cutting torch or range targetry was the likely end for almost all that get converted. We can't be too precious about these things & I'd rather some decent blokes had a bit of fun with a 432 than it facing the usual fate - rotting in a scrapyard for years before being melted down when the material price is right.
    Film work is the destiny for many, and a carefully built & robust replica often does that job much better than a delicate 60-70 year old machine. The 'Panzers' you see crashing about in Shaving Ryan's Privates, Band of Brothers etc. are being driven in an aggressive way that owners of the real kit are unlikely to allow. I've seen the Wheatcroft Famo run many times, but I only snapped it daring this once:
    famo.jpg
    (Sadly I can't find the earlier shot... front end must have been 20 feet off the ground). They're delicate, rare, and significant; the replicas save them from abuse. Many owners of esoteric original German gear even seem to retreat from the display arena when it starts raining or gets boggy, bugs the hell out of me, but it ain't my ridiculously pricey bit of machinery and I'm just glad they brought it along in the first place.


    One odd bit of conversion I often see is OT810s into 251s. I'd love to see an 810 being displayed as what it actually is, but all go straight to the 251 display market (fair few museum '251s' are not what they claim, the one at Duxford even has a modern Skoda badge discretely displayed). Again, I'm not worried though, having seen some shots of just how many 810s still survive in Czecho.

    Not really. Culling a 432 is hardly the same as eg. Bovington's destruction of many rare/significant prototypes in the 30s and 50s. What we have to remember is that the impulse to restore/preserve these old dears is a relatively modern one, perhaps going hand in hand with that 'Dodo Brittanicus' urge to preserve everything. I'm glad people do it, obviously, but chaps like the Pz.III creators are just the sort of fellas that keep the scene vibrant, and one day will no doubt turn their not inconsiderable skill to something more historically interesting.
    Things like the Panthers that went to range targets in the UK, possibly even a Tiger or two, the Schmallturm, French dumps providing tons of Krupp steel for the cutting men etc. might be a shame, but they were done by the standards of the day and I fully understand why nobody wanted to preserve some old machines, particularly enemy ones - enough got through though, even when there was a full scale austerity scrap-drive going on. Many more of the modern machines will survive now that the 'hobby' has established.

    ~A
     
  5. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    Let's hope so. I appreciate there is a need for some conversions for films and displays, scratch building is not cost effective, and that that aspect of the market will also help preserve more chassis.

    I just hope that before it is too late for the current generation of 'old machines', adequate numbers will be available in the hands of public museums around the world to ensure their continuation. In the case of the 43 series you are probably right that there will not be a shortage, however the same could have been said for all the WW2 vehicles that are now so rare.

    As a species we can only afford to be sentimental with old tanks to a limited extent and hopefully the modern interest and enthusiasm will ensure that that happens. We do, however IMO, need to be a little less cavalier with vehicles that future generations may miss as much as we miss those from earlier times.

    I shall now climb off my horse :)
     
  6. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Very cool stuff here, along with some great pics.

    Martin- what's that Beltring thing? A google search doesn't turn up much, but given those photos, looks like an amazing "event"! Given that the Tiger in the background doesn't appear to be #131 from Bovington, what was that? A replica? Partially refurbished real one?

    :cheers:
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    The 'Tiger' is the T55 based one. Built by Carl Brown of C&C services:
    WEBVERT (that 'WW1' Cent still lurking there.)
    Tigger's been flogged since.

    Beltring?
    Crazy, you'd LOVE Beltring :D.
    Beltring War & Peace Show 2006-2009 - World War 2 Talk
    http://www.ww2f.com/living-history/15995-war-peace-show.html
    http://www.ww2f.com/living-history/32991-war-peace-09-pictures.html
    (Can't bring myself to link to the 2010 one, as it's the first I missed for years :(... Martin can do that.)

    Few other threads knocking about.
    Main site:
    War & Peace Show 2010 - The Largest Military Vehicle Spectacular in the World - Home

    ~A
     
  8. Nicnac

    Nicnac Member

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  9. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    "Honest Adams used AFV's and knackered knick knacks"
     
  10. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Member

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    "131" WAS there this year - but not on "open" display - it was in a tent! Displaying its currently-empty engine bay...
     
  11. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    As everyone's answered for me ;) here's a taste of the very warm Beltring '10....

    [​IMG]


    :cool:
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Armor Page 1
    Full-track stuff on there...
    1943 M5a1 - $219,000
    1944 M5a1 - $249,900
    1942 M4a3 - $415,000
    1943 M4a1 DD (!) - $595,000 (now you don't see many of those knocking about)
    DD Turret & Props (!) - $97,500
    1943 M5a1 - $267,500
    1943 M5 - $245,000
    Many more very interesting machines on that link.

    ~A
     
  13. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    I kinda wish I HADN'T clicked any of those links. Good lord.

    The stuff in the stalls and such- specifically I'm thinking of that table with all the ammo on it- that stuff all for sale?

    When is this Beltring event? I don't have too much time at the moment at work to search, and didn't find any clear site on event info.

    Awesome stuff.

    :cheers:
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    2011 show - 20th to 24th July.
    Hop Farm country Park, Paddock Wood, Beltring, Kent.
    England.
    Worlds largest MV show.

    For sale?
    Oh yes.
    At least an entire day to walk round the stalls properly.
    (Martin seems rather keen on the ammo stalls. I've seen everything from Dora Shellcases to Steilgranates & Jagdtiger rounds on offer, alongside the Kettenkrads, Chenilettes & Protzes also being flogged from the market.)

    I suspect, if you're ever in the UK at the right time, you may just possibly quite enjoy it...

    ~A
     
  15. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Yeah, maybe. Not like I'm interested in WW2 armor though. ;)

    Great info, thanks VP!

    HA- just went and found the website:
    War & Peace Show 2010 - The Largest Military Vehicle Spectacular in the World - Home

    So it's held at a place called the Hop Farm family park... which apparently has no hops actually growing.

    That's false advertising! :D

    :cheers:

    [edit]

    OK, sounds like the place did used to be a fully functional hop farm, so I guess we're good on that. Still, would undoubtedly improve the Beltring show if there was a brewpub on premises brewing with freshly-harvested hops. Just sayin'.

    ;)
     
  16. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    I've been every year for the last ten years. It varies from year to year as the economy stutters along, and the days of £10 Panzerfaust tubes are sadly over. :( It's still a great day out, though.........:)
     
  17. Jadgermeister

    Jadgermeister Member

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    I see a lot of tanks for sale from private individuals in Michigan. They have a lot of them up there, most towns have one or more. The largest city in the north is Traverse city, its pretty small and still has a Patton tank at the VFW. The outlying towns have an unusual number of tanks, and one small town has a Sherman in great condition. The entire town is like 400m long.
    If I still lived there I would point them out, due to the economy the price of everything is great. They have steak for $1.89lb, which would be $6 where I live now. I bought a truck for $1k that I cant find for 4x that now.
    So if you are looking for a tank, plane, or work truck, check out Northern Michigan. Im sure you can find a used car publication somewhere.
    Western mass is also good, you can still buy used dump trucks for a few hundred bucks, and I saw a firetruck for $500 bucks the last time I was there. The economy there is really based off the welfare of half the population, so its a good place to get deals. In '04 I saw a Fury III with new paint for $3k, and a Olds with a 455 rocket for $1500. There was an olds with a 440 for $500, and even that took forever to sell. They even have a jeep dealer specializing in sub $4k jeeps. Definitely a good place to look.
    These arent trashy places either, the economies just slowed down over time and stabilized like that.
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Sherman M32B1E9 - Armour and Tracked Military Vehicles - MILWEB CLASSIFIEDS
    Sherman M74 Tank Recovery Vehicle - Military vehicles, militaria and military classifieds
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Military vehicles, militaria and military classifieds

    Military vehicles, militaria and military classifieds

    Military vehicles, militaria and military classifieds

     
  20. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I wonder what happened to the OP. Has anyone heard of a guy buying up all the Tigers, Panthers and Elefants recently? ;)
     

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