Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Rootsie, Sep 7, 2007.
About the Middle-Eastern oilfields
I thought about that and Germany could overcome this by establishing a satellite state, it therefore you don't need to pipe it to Germany, you build up your forces around the oil facilities, Germany offers Turkey a slice of the deal and Germay gets transit rights through Turkey, Turkey could still claim limited neutrality. And slowly Germany could build up its forces in the Middle East but that is one hell of a difficult job to do.
Not a bad idea, but someone would have to actually get to the oil. When the situation became hot; the Allies would see the trick and declare war on Turkey.
And that wouln't be too difficukt, to kill off Turkey economically one of the good ideas is to mine the Bosporan Straits-Marmarian Sea to close the European-Asian navigation. Instanbul would starve, no need to Essen it.
Would this not alter the correlation of forces at the Eastern Front? I admit I'm not really familiar with the Turkish OrBat during World War II but at first glance, the Allies declaring war on Turkey would force the Soviets to deploy more troops at the Turkey-USSR border and the British would have to send troops to what I think is now northern Iraq.
Germany might not get the oil but getting Turkey actively involved in the war would be beneficial to Hitler because it would force Allies and Stalin to divert troops to a new front.
To a rather immobile front, as on the Soviet side there was the Caucasus mountain barrier and any goatherd would be able to defend themselves. On the south it would be a bit more interesting for the Brits, but the Turkish Army wasn't modern at all.
Yes, block the Hellespont and let the Turks sort out their own mess...
And besides, the Allies could always offer a bigger bribe. Just analyze why Turkey decided that staying neutral was a fine idea, instead.
Thanks for that insight. You've sparked my interest to check on more on that area. People do learn new things every day. Thanks again sir.
One reputation point on the way for your politeness
If you want to keep discussing, just keep throwing stones at the lake to keep the frogs croaking
One thing is there could be another senario, a clandestine agreement by Germany to supply as many old equipment that has been pensioned off and give it to Turkey, this is for transit rights into Turkey and just for a sake onf an argument it is agreed Germany could slowly build a rapid strike force that could attack the Soviet underbelly through the Caucasus. Included in this would be the 7th Flieger Division and drop them on the Baku oilfields before the Soviets knew what hit them and then the Germans with a conventional Army or two launch a spearhead towards the Middle-East oilfields. just a thought
Sir, on paper looks possible but unlikely. I think it would be very difficult to hide the presence of the large number of aircraft needed by the 7th Flieger Division from prying eyes.
No, that's not the problem. Dispersing the 8000-12000 men of a division is easy enough. The real problem is the Caucasus was/is impassable to large bodies of troops with their impedimenta.
We can discuss wether the Tante Jus would have the ability/capacity/range to carry useful amounts of troops + their supplies over the Caucasus. Also Baku itself is/was not a small fort like Eben Emael, but an astoundingly large sprawl of oil fields so you do need really a lot of troops.
And I haven't yet even seen a map just to look at the distances involved.
Quite frankly, I think this is just phantasy.
Yeah i agree, it is fantasy, it was just another senario and i can see problems with like troop movements through the Caucasus Mountains, but if Hannibal could get his army through the Swiss Alps to attack Rome then i think the Germans and Turks could have done it, highly improbable, but not impossible, on Baku itself i have not seen actual WW2 vintage mapes on the oil facilities but i can assure you they would not be as large as they are today, and if memory serves it was lightly defended in June 1941, unlike two years later so it may have been taken by one single airborne division and done quickly enough so that the Soviets had no time to adequately repulse it's takeover, and yes i can see flaws in this as you might have the troops but you need aircraft to lift and to supply the troops, it is just an idea of what is the possibilities of such an occurance.
Well, if you look at two maps of the same scale you will see that the Alps are just a speed bump as compared to the Caucasus. And also the tail of a modern army is much bigger and made up of much bigger items than a Carthaginian army.
As for the elephants, only a few if any survived the experience, and a mule train is much more mobile up and down track goats than your typical Opel truck, so don't count much on that. Do you remember the Burma-China road, or whatever it was called? Now imagine having to build one without all those hundreds of thousands of coolies, and how long to do it.
Ok, Baku was lightly defended but that could be arranged. Remember the Germans did take the Maikop oilfields, close to the Black Sea, but could not do anything with them as they had been thoroughly scorched-earthed, including pouring concrete down the wells. Not a drop of oil was taken from that.
Same, by the way with the Donbass mines. Hitler was constantly griping about how important they were for the manganese etc, but again nothing was extracted, all the ore taken was from the stockpiles already above ground!
Baku WAS enormous, their main oil facility while the Siberian ones were developed, and the Russians being Russians all the main installations would quickly be rigged to be blown up at the first inkling.
Roddoss, I don't want to sound arrogant to you, but I am an engineer and I know that some things have physical limits...
Hey Za howzit going.
But somehow Hannibal got through, anyway, you, engineer cool i can dig it, and yes thing do have their physical limits, but i was playing the devil's advocated and that the German 7th Flieger Division was deployed on the 23rd June 1941, 24hrs after the commencement of Barbarossa, the Soviets would not have had adequate to to build defenses, and to build defenses within 24hrs now thats a physical limmitation.