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Hitler moves South

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by British-Empire, Jan 14, 2010.

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  1. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    The initial airfields will be built at the rail heads.
    However if Vichy French land is not to be used for supply (which Petain agreed to in OTL with Tunis) it will have to be a bit further West in Turkey.
    Forward air bases can be built nearer the caucasus and supplied by air if need be or on the Northern Turkish coast and supplied by sea.
    In movement into the Caucasus may spark risings by the Azirs and Chechens etc.
    In 1942 in the German troops manged to reach the peak of the Caucasus coming from the North.
    So it is all very possible in this case with extra Apline troops and airpower.
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I make that about 300 miles for the furthes NE point of Syria to the Soviet border. A bit far if you are flying close air support at least if you want it to be responsive.
    Do you realize just how inefficient this is? Building airfields in that area hardly looks trivial to me either.
    And the Turks can control the Black Sea? The Italians have their hands full in the Med. so they aren't going to be much help. Of course you still haven't presented a compelling case for the Turks to join in.
    Is it? You have yet to make a very strong case for it. By the way you can't just pull Alpine troops out of the air. Extra airpower isn't that easy to come by either.
     
  3. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Inefficient but necessary and common in every theatre of the war.

    With the Suez Canal closed and Malta in Axis hands the Eastern Mediterranean will be free of Allied shipping so the Italians can concentrate on the Black sea.
     
  4. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    The Alpini would be of much better use there in with Army group South.
    Army group South could replace them with some of the 200,000 men the Italians lost in our time line in Greece.
    The Gebirgsjäger would be off better use there than wasted in Karelia too.
    The extra air power could be found in those 100 or so planes lost in the Balkans and those not to mention those stations in the occupation zones.
    However extra aircraft want needed it was just a better placement of aircraft in this case.
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    British-Empire,

    You seem to be missing the point. The offer of Cyprus to the Greeks and threatening Turkey are hardly sufficient reasons for either of these countries to join the Axis. After WW1 Turkey lost her empire, she wanted nothing to do with Germany nor was she militarily ready. Turkey did NOT want to go to war with Russia. Had Germany blackmailed or tried to threaten a former ally then whats to stop Turkey from going to Russia for help?

    An alliance with Germany would mean seeing Russian troops in Turkey just as fast they historically went into Persia (with their British Allies). Turkey knew this. ;)

    It seems you also fail to grasp the logistical nightmare that the supply line would present. Thousand(s) of miles through hostile sea, desert, mountains and multiple unfriendly countries to go through. All of this is being done by a nation who has fuel limitations?

    How many German troops do you think will be needed to garrison Egypt, Syria etc... Surely you dont think that the populations' would want them their indefinite?

    I keep hearing of these alpine troops. This is silly to me. These troops were light infantry and were not capable of long sustained combat. These units did not possess heavy artillery or tanks, air cover is minimal. How on earth would they fair against an entrenched adversary who had all of the above?

    Just because Turkey had troops to contribute does not mean that they were of quality. Italy had a lot of men too, and what happened?

    The biggest issue that I have with this fantasy is the purpose? What would Germany gain by this approach? Do the risks outweigh the rewards?
     
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  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Inefficient to the point of not being practical in some cases. Certainly your av gas usage goes through the roof in this case if it's even possible.
    And leave Italy at the mercy of British naval bombardment?

    Of course I'm not even convinced the first parts are practicle. For a reasonable discussion we really need for you to describe just when and what the POD is and how you get to various critical points.
     
  7. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Airpower will protect the Italian coast.
    The Luftwaffe managed to build forward airfields in Russia and Egypt over a far greater distance in hostile lands.
     
  8. efestos

    efestos Member

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    In this time line:

    German (and Italian SUBMARINES sailing from Med) to to Indian Ocean? to Australia?

    They did it, but in very few numbers (8 or 9 u -boats).

    The god news for the allies is that all the tavel could be done near friendly coast.

    Jap submarines providing strategic materials for alloys? In fact they tried to do it too in 43 but finally failed, the sub was lost in the atlantic.
     
  9. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    They will be even more cooperation between the Japanese and Italian navies in my scenario as the Axis will control the Suez canal, East Sudan and may even still hold on to Italian East Africa.
     
  10. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    Ok, BE

    This thread has gone around and around in circles, you have been repeatedly asks to prove how not only your scenario was possible but also your individual logistical problems, few of which have been accurately answered to a point where it is satisfactory to continue the discussion.

    You have been constantly reminded of the actual problems faced by the nations during ww2 and you have ignored these issues here, you have also chose to change the way countries think and the way the political parties view each other.

    I told you at the beginning that this was on a short thread, and the end has been reached, nothing really informative is coming out of this thread and now will be closed.

    Thread Closed.
     
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