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How would you have avoided the attack on Pearl Harbor?

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by OpanaPointer, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. freebird

    freebird Member

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    Well, the detailed info would have been the exact identity of the BB's, if they could tell the difference between say, W. Virgina or Maryland, and the older BB's like Utah or Oklahoma, as opposed to just a general idea of how many BB's were there

    Since your question was about avoiding damage (or even mitigating it) don't you think that restricting Pearl City to perhaps only military personnel (or dependants) would have been a good idea?
    It's far easier to plan an effective raid if you know exactly where the targets are....
     
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    He reported their names when he was sure, classes when he wasn't.
    He would have just gone farther out a ways. The harbor is a "goldfish bowl" according to Adm. Richardson.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    From his favorite seat in a resteraunt (tea house?) as I recall.
     
  4. Biak

    Biak Adjutant Patron  

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    Removing the fleet, or parts of, is exactly what has been mentioned. Where to and how often is the relevant question. As for building 'decoys', we would have unknowingly played directly into the hands of the Japanese by indicating a large Naval force sitting at anchor. More targets = more incentive to attack. The US did not know until after the War that Japan wanted to deal a 'devastating' blow to American morale and Naval strength in the Pacific.
    We're talking 1941 here and security against espionage was nearly non-existent. If I remember correctly, postcards that were simply bought as souvenirs showed in great detail the basin holding the fleet. Husbanding aircraft against saboteurs was a good idea if you are not expecting an aerial attack, not so much if one appears suddenly on the Horizon.
    How much room was there to have a fleet of decoys and still have a place for the real thing? Also mentioned, freedom of movement of civilians was the norm. I believe it would be virtually impossible to hide by camouflage any size ship let alone a BB and especially an aircraft carrier. There were 'hidden' factories along the West Coast of California that were virtually invisible from the air but a walk down the street revealed their location and a mark on a map or again a postcard, would provide exact aim points. Moving a Capital ship at night so as not to be seen wouldn't work either. Anyone within a few miles would hear those engines and a multi-story Behemoth puts off a huge silhouette at the very least. All said there was no way to restrict visible access. Look at an aerial view of the harbor and you can see all you would need is a pair of binoculars, a notebook and pencil.
    And you're right, it is easier to plan a raid if you know exactly where the targets are. Moving the targets in a sporadic routine with questionable destinations would make it much harder to develop a plan.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Sometimes, sometimes he "went fishing".
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was assigned to teach diplomatic folks how to drive around -------- without getting killed. My first instruction was "never develop a pattern." I told them to have ten routes to work in a jar, and to pick one out each morning. (Colored marbles represented the routes.) I never lost anybody on my watch.
     
  7. namvet

    namvet Member

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    it was murphy's law. everything went wrong. the pentagon was stripping the pacific fleet for the war in EU. just like they did at Guadalcanal. the brass said the harbor was to to shallow for a torpedo attack. Pearl was to far away. the USS Ward attack. the radar screen full of aircraft coming from the northwest. the BB's in cold iron. total doom.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    There was shooting war in the Atlantic, we needed ships there.
    The Myths of Pearl Harbor.
    We didn't know they could refuel at sea for that long a trip.
    The Myths of Pearl Harbor.
    The SCR radar used an oscilloscope, so they saw a spike, a big spike. No IFF in those days.
    The Myths of Pearl Harbor.
    I take it you weren't a snipe? We liked our weekends off too.
     
  9. namvet

    namvet Member

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    myth's??? no just facts. and no I was not a snipe
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Ah, I see you didn't read the sources I linked for you. That's okay. I was a snipe for 20 years.
     
  11. namvet

    namvet Member

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    yes I read it. but I don't always believe what the internet stories say. many I just take at face value. without knowing who wrote it. or their sources. that's all im saying. maybe this add some fuel to the fire. back in the 80's a TV documentary was shown called Deception at Pearl Harbor. really outstanding. it impies FDR may have known about the attack in advance. myth or fact??? you tell me.

    story

    hey I knew a lotta snipes. went on liberty with em. but we always had steam up in the boilers after this attack. just in case
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I sited my sources, (and the fact that you didn't notice tells me how much you actually read) but if you want a closer look at them, here you go. PDF copies of the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings before Congress
    Yes, "after". Kimmel had the Fleet on bankers' hours. He actually published the quarterly employment schedule, something that should have been very secret.
     
  13. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I get the impression that neither the US or FDR were horribly excited to commit troops/naval forces to a conflict. I will acknowledge that "disinterest" is a strog word and I use it only in the application of troops and naval forces.

    I will standby my assesment that the raid on Pearl Harbor was not meant to draw the United States into war in the Pacific. If Japan wanted to start a war with just the US there were easier ways to get there than attack Pearl Harbor.
    Furthermore:

    You can take the move of the Pacific Fleet and the build up of forces in the Philipines a couple of different ways (these are mine):
    1. At face value to discourage further Japanese aggression in the SW Pacific.
    2. As antagonizing Japan into attacking US interests abroad.
    3. Providing Japan with alternate targets, than mainland US, to attack which would compel the US to respond.
    4. All of the above.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The is the way that is supported by the facts.
    We wanted to avoid a war with Japan. It would be a distraction from the war in Europe.
    Again, we wanted to avoid war in the Pacific.
    Just #1.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Had to check Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History. Prange said that closing the consulate in Honolulu might have averted the attack because the Japanese would not have gotten Yoshikawa's intell.
     
  16. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    That's why it's #1
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    But we seem to get a lot of #2, don't we? :D
     
  18. namvet

    namvet Member

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    I told you I read it. ive seen it before. and obviously you didn't read mine. the PDF's will take days to read. and you know it. just don't have the time right now. but I understand your total obsession with this event.

    BTY. im from Missouri to.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    What sources did you quote in the post I quoted above, please?
    I read the PHA the first time starting in 1965. The Myths site has the documents concerning your claims, and why they're specious. If you want to call Halsey a liar that's fine, he's dead.
     
  20. namvet

    namvet Member

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    no s**t sherlock???

    "There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet."- ADM William F. Halsey
     

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