Is flak 88 regarded as artillery?

Some friends of mine have a discussion about artillery. One of them says the flak 88 is not regarded as artillery.
Do you know if the flak 88 was used by artillery regiments with a crew from army men?

 

Technically, I think that the 88 would NOT be artillery. Generally, artillery fires using a sloped trajectory- meant to allow for indirect fire. 88s fired on a flat trajectory, and could not be efficiently aimed for indirect fire.
(Also the reason artillery is not very effective as an anti-tank weapon).

That being said, 88s were undoubtedly used in the same manner as artillery on occasion...

 

Guys :

The 8.8cm was used by army flak units......that's a twist eh ?

Problem with many US army accounts is that all in-coming was given the 88mm term while in reality it was either 105 or 150mm rounds. Could the 88 be used as artillery....sure but why ? The value of the piece was it's long range and high trajectory so a dual role for the Flak 18, 36 and 41 during the conflict.

~E

 

Wasn't the 88 originally used as an artillery piece until Rommel had them used for direct anti-tank fire?

Greg

 

The Flak-88 was solely an Anti-Aircraft gun until the Germans realized its incredible Anti-Tank capabilities. It was dual purpose until the end of the war. But I wouldnt think that it could be used as artillery, as it was mentioned before, it was much more effective at straight angles.

 

Rule #14:

If you can use a weapon for something to harm your enemy, use it. As inadequate it is, it's still better than not harming him at all.

8The 88 AAA-gun was also used as tent pole for command tents, as much the 105mm field howitzers for anti-tank.

The average soldier doesn't care to much if it's described in the manual if the bullets fly around, I guess.

Cheers

 

Much like weve seen over recent years with shoulder held anti tank weapons being used as bunker busters instead..

Or even old Carl Gustav anti tank being used as anti ship in Falklands conflict at South Gerogia.

 

Greg,

the 88 was used for the first time as AT weapon in the Spanish Civil war.

 

Was the flak 88 operated by artillery soldiers in artillery regiments?

 

Volkbert, Erich can probably clarify this better than myself... but ...

88s would have been "manned' by two potential groups.
In the anti-aircraft role, 88s would have been manned by army troops specifically assigned to FlaK duties.
(Although... need clarification... didn't the Luftwaffe also have it's own FlaK troops? If this is the case, these troops would also man the 88s, although belonging to the Luftwaffe.)
2nd Group- PanzerJager regiments. After 41, the 88 was often used for anti-tank purposes, and I believe in 41 there was the first purpose-built anti tank 88 (the specific name of this version of the 88 eludes me at the moment...). So in addition to the FlaK troops, anti-tank troops would also be issued 88s.

correct??

 

Your referring to the 88mm Pak 43 and 44 guns. these were not the same weapons as the flak 88, but more like the guns on a King Tiger.

The Flak 88s were operated by the Flak regiments. At first they were operated by Air Force crews, but this caused probl;ems with a chain of command. Finally, i think around 1943, the Army took control of its own Flak elements.

A big problem was that many commanders used these guns more for the Anti tank role than AA, which the Air Force in particular did not like.

 

Good call, Bish. In the case of PAK anti-tank guns, I guess it would be rather obvious who was crewing them!

A question though... before the PAK 43 and 44 purpose-built anti-tank 88s were commonly available- were Panzerjager units ever supplied with the Flak 88 for anti-tank use? We know that the germans started using the 88 for anti-tank purposes before the intorduction of the 88mm Paks (correct?)- so were early Panzerjager units ever issued the standard Flak 88?

 

No they wern't !

what was standard issue was the puny Pak 37 37mm tinker toy and the the 50mm gun and later Pak 40 75mm.

Only in the specialized and later developed Schwere Panzerjäger abteilungs in the army were the Pak 43 88mm towed guns available.

88 flak pieces were standard issue in the W-SS Panzer Divisions as per Flak Abteilung. obviously we know for certain they served a dual purpose.......as for the army I am not sure what they had for a Flak battalion or companies.
For the Luftwaffe, special defense Abteilungs were formed with 88mm guns and of course history shows they were quite effective in Normandy when the Luftwaffe core was pulled rank on so the guns could be used in the AT role and not for Flak purposes as intended

E

 

Gotcha.
Let me make sure I have this right- PanzerJager units would have never (or at least very rarely) been issued a Flak 88? They would have used their tinker-toys early in the war, and the better Pak guns later?
Conversly, when the Flak 88 was used in an anti-tank role, it would have been manned either by Luftwaffe or Army Flak personell?

 

Richtig ! (correct) to the first part until issued the Pak 43 heavy boy.

Second, yes but also W-SS personell as I described as part of the integral Flak Abteilung with the batteries in the Division.
Also Kriegsmarine units were also equipped with the Flak 88mm pieces and used in home defence on the Ost Front. Guns were pulled from many cities on the Baltic coast and then dug in trench like for the oncoming T-34 horde's.

~E

 

So essentially, in cases where the Flak 88 was pressed into anti-tank service- whatever arm of service (Heer, W-SS, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe)- it would still be manned by Flak personell... correct?!

I wonder then... were Flak troops given any training in anti-tank usage of the 88? I would imagine that using an 88 for AT purposes would be rather different than it's original anti-aircraft function.

 

I think that would be a fair assumption. There would be literally crash-courses in terrain and distance measuring in open-field exercises. Also a change of ammunition as the change of HE over to special AP rounds but again the "Flak" crews and guns would be required to fullfill the dual purspose role.....

>E<