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Rat lines created to help escaping Nazi War Criminals by the Catholic Church

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Von Ritter, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    No sir, not at all. It is a matter of PROOF. And the author HAS NONE. Thus we are treated with "Some historians..." and "has been written..."
    WITH NO QUOTATIONS OR SOURCES.
    (Caps for emphasis only)

    As I had never heard of the Spellman-Nazi connection, only his time as head Army vicar, and rabid anti-communism stance, I was hoping for some interesting material on him. But, instead, I read of unsubstantiated rumors. Big let down.

    By the author's logic ever Catholic that contributed dime one to the Catholic Church was funding Nazi ratlines.
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Never trust too much in wikipedia but accordingly he escaped 1948 and 18 months later went to Spain

    I would have thought the Major nazis would have escaped within two years at least through Italy and Spain to Southern America.

    Just now do not remember the actions of ODESSA. Maybe somebody else does?
     
  3. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Numbers went via Portugal, my father was in Lisbon in 1946 and reported that the second hand shops were full of German cameras, binoculars, high quality sun glasses etc. I still have the Agfa camera he brought back - according to the serial number it was produced in 1943 when Agfa were limited to supplying only senior party officials and senior army officers with that model.
     
  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    He supposedly "escaped", yet nobody seems to have gone to much trouble hunting him down and bringing him back. I Wonder why?
     
  5. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    you stubbed your foot--again...hatred causes mistakes
    ..more proof coming
     
  6. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Well, my guess would be that there wasn't any evidence of real wrong-doing on his part. However, he was described as "the most dangerous man in Europe"! (I'll bet that really stroked his ego!) Therefore, no one really wanted to take the risk of letting him walk.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What are you talking about?

    Hatred of what...exactly? You mistake this "hatred" of yours for honest curiosity.

    However, I am looking for more than unnamed "Some Historians", and unnamed books where it "has been written."
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    ODESSA - Wikipedia

    The ODESSA is an American codename (from the German: Organisation der ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen, meaning: Organization of Former SS Members) coined in 1946 for a possible Nazi underground escape plan at the end of World War II by a group of SS officers.

    The routes are also called ratlines. The goal was to allow the SS members to escape to Argentina, or the Middle East under false passports.[1] This goal was in fact achieved by 300 Nazis with support from Juan Perón after he came to power in Argentina in 1946.[2]

    Though an unknown number of wanted Nazis and war criminals did in fact escape Europe, the existence of an organisation called ODESSA is rejected by most experts. However it is widely accepted that there were escape organisation.

    They used Germans who had been hired to drive U.S. Army trucks on the autobahn between Munich and Salzburg for the 'Stars and Stripes,' the American Army newspaper. The couriers had applied for their jobs under false names, and the Americans in Munich had failed to check them carefully... (the) ODESSA was organized as a thorough, efficient network... Anlaufstellen (ports of call) were set up along the entire Austro-German border... In Lindau, close to both Austria and Switzerland, (the) ODESSA set up an 'export-import' company with representatives in Cairo and Damascus.

    Of particular importance in examining the postwar activities of high-ranking Nazis was Paul Manning's book Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile.
    According to Manning, "eventually, over 10,000 former German military made it to South America along escape routes set up by (the) ODESSA and the Deutsche Hilfsverein...". The ODESSA itself was incidental, says Manning, with the continuing existence of the Bormann Organisation a much larger and more menacing fact. None of this had yet been convincingly proven.[

    ---------------------

    Organization of Former SS Members (ODESSA)

    Some war criminals remained in Germany and took on new identities, managing to get themselves smuggled out of Germany and to freedom during the chaos at the end of hostilities. An underground network called "Die Spinne" (The Spider) supplied false papers and passports, safe houses, and contacts that could smuggle war criminals across the un-patrolled Swiss borders. Once into Switzerland, they moved on quickly to Italy, using what some called "The Monastery Route." Roman Catholic priests, especially Franciscans, helped Odessa move fugitives from one monastery to the next until they reached Rome. According to Wiesenthal, one Franciscan monastery, Via Sicilia in Rome, was virtually a transit station for Nazis, an arrangement made possible by a bishop from Graz named Alois Hudal. Wiesenthal speculates that the motive for most of the priests was what he viewed as a misguided notion of Christian charity. Once in Italy, the fugitives were out of danger, and many then dispersed around the globe.

    Some countries may not have known about their new immigrants' pasts, but many did and chose to look the other way. Others, including the United States, looked to exploit the knowledge of Nazis. Fascist countries, such as Spain under Franco, as well as those in South America, became safe havens. The establishment of the state of Israel after World War II led some Arab nations to welcome Nazis who shared their hatred of the Jews in the hope they would use their experise in areas such as rocketry to tilt the balance in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Skorzeny

    Nazi commando turned Irish farmer

    How did Hitler's scar-faced henchman become an Irish farmer?
    By Peter Crutchley BBC Digital & Learning NI

    After World War Two, he landed in Argentina and became a bodyguard for Eva Perón, with whom he was rumoured to have had an affair.So when Otto Skorzeny arrived in Ireland in 1959, having bought a rural farmhouse in County Kildare, it caused much intrigue.

    Ten days after Hitler took his own life in May 1945, Skorzeny surrendered to the Americans.

    At Dachau in 1947 he stood trial for war crimes, but the case collapsed and Skorzeny was acquitted.

    Skorzeny still had to answer charges from other countries and remained held as a prisoner of war. Typically, he escaped - with the help of former SS comrades.

    He ended up in Madrid and set up an import/export agency. Although much of its business was legitimate, this was said to have been a front for Skorzeny's involvement in organising the escape of wanted Nazis from Europe to South America.

    Indisputably, Skorzeny made many trips to Argentina, where he met Argentinean President Juan Perón and even became a bodyguard to Perón's wife Eva, reportedly foiling an attempt on her life.

    Skorzeny travelled from Madrid to Ireland in June 1957, where he had been invited to Portmarnock Country Club hotel in County Dublin.

    the former Irish minister for health Noel Browne was very concerned about Skorzeny's presence in Ireland and raised the matter in the Irish parliament (Dáil), in 1959.

    The minister expressed concern that Skorzeny was engaging in "anti-Semitic activities".

    On another occasion Browne told the Dáil: "It is generally understood that this man plays some part (in neo-Nazi activities) and, if so, he should not be allowed to use Ireland for that purpose."

    Newspaper reports in the 1960s alleged that Skorzeny had opened up an escape route for ex-Nazis in Spain and that his farm in Ireland was a place where fleeing Nazis could hide, but no evidence was found to substantiate this claim.

    When interviewed, Skorzeny denied that he was involved in Nazi activities or politics.

    He said that he would like to buy horses and that one day he wished to retire to Ireland. But that did not happen and he was never granted a permanent Irish visa.

    He lived out his remaining years in Madrid, where he died of cancer in 1975.

    Skorzeny never denounced Nazism and was buried by his former comrades with his coffin draped in the Nazi colours.
     
  10. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..I'm getting those books..we'll see if that's one of those I read about
    1. I gave links/proof already
    2. it was in the book I read
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I look forward to whatever you find. As I am genuinely curious...No "hatred" involved.

    You gave links...For which I am duly appreciative.

    However the "proof" turned out to be unsourced assumption on the author's part.

    I am not questioning that you did not read it somewhere. I am interested in what you read, as I have no knowledge of it...Hence my curiosity.
     
  12. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..I'm ''pretty sure''' it's in the book you linked.--if not, Hunting Evil....I have them on request.....I got it from the library and I requested that, and 2 similar books
    ...
    ..is it not in Nazis on the Run?..do you have that available?

    ...AND, doesn't matter to my point = which was I read it...if you can refute, it--so be it ..I don't care
    Spellman raised funds that helped the Nazis ratline, plain and simple
     
  13. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..you did not refute it, you just said it's '''unsourced''
    ..didn't I give more than 1 link?
     
  14. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes, and as you can see the book is pretty thread bare concerning Spellman. Barely half a paragraph on Spellman's fantastic powers of raising funds/donations, and his influence. Then much further down, a brief mention of his contact with Hudal's representative and the offer of $200 a month. Now in the previous sentence, we see that Hudal's organization is just one of the organizations receiving NCWC money - weakening the link, as it was not just Hudal's organization alone that was getting money. In the following sentences, it is revealed that the OSS is providing Hudal with $1,500 a month.

    As I have said, the link is tenuous at best.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    There is nothing to refute.

    Yes, the other link is a carbon copy of Wikipedia - which has no mention of Spellman funding Nazi ratlines.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The closest I have found that Spellman helped Nazis (in this case, a Nazi collaborator) escape is Bishop Gregory Rozman. In 1947, Cardinal Spellman sent a letter to Archbishop Rohracher of Salzburg, that Rozman could find sanctuary in the US. Rozman quickly left Klagefurt and went to Salzburg. He would later travel to Berne, before finally settling in Cleveland, Ohio.

    Source
    Unholy Trinity - The Vatican, the Nazis, and the Swiss Banks (New and Revised Edition)
    By Mark Aarons and John Loftus

    Bishop Rozman's Wiki:
    Gregorij Rožman - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  18. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    .....but it's in the book you linked--page 108--the Archbishop from New York [ you said no one from New York helped the rat lines ]
    they helped greatly--here:
    page107:
    '''...the papal relief commission received a large part of its necessary funds from the Catholic Church in the United States. The National Catholic Welfare Conference ....played a central role in this .....''

    page 108:
    ''The Archbishop of New York ...Francis Spellman had the greatest influence within the NCWC.....''''
    bold mine
    ''large''......'''central role''.......'''greatest influence''...........!!

    1. you are trying to refute the book you recommended!!
    2. whether Spellman knew what the $$$$ were used for or not, he raised a lot of the $$$$ used for the ratlines --'''played a central role '' = he helped the nazis escape--as I stated
    --unwittingly or not, he helped ---'''greatly''' - per the bold quotes in the book
    3. yes, a New York priest was involved---
    4. the book supports the links I provided

    your quote:
    ..the book you recommended supports the claim

    ...plain and simple--the Catholic Church helped the ratlines--Archbishop Spellman played a ''central role''/etc in that
    page 102:
    '''the Vatican relief commission for refugees played a central part in the escape of the Nazis.....'''
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  19. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    here's more
    ..hey pal, an Archbishop is not the one cleaning trash cans and sweeping the floor!!!
    '''page 108:
    ''His position of power was based on his financial skills, and for many was ''by far the greatest business head the Church has ever had in America''
    bold mine
    '''ever'''!!!!....Archbishop of New York = power/etc

    ..it's not just about Spellman in the book, but the NCWC--where he had ''the greatest influence''/etc
     
  20. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Those are not original document sources, but opinions of the author.
     

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