Spielberg Movies and Waffen SS

Dunno if this has been discussed or not, but I got a couple of questions regarding the SS portrayed in Spielbergs shows:
Band Of Brothers / SPR.

1) Were there that many SS in normandy that just about every soldier fought in his movies appear to be SS?

2) Why are SS so crap in his movies? In the battle at the dyke episode 5, Winter's company decimates 2 (companies?) with only one American guy killed (the night before)...did that happen? Is that possible? I mean I know BOB is a bit innaccuate in some places but I would have thought they would not cheat on who was killed when and where considering that would've been the easiest thing to check up on.

[ 10. November 2003, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

i guess its because hes a jew himself and id imagine quite close 2 home for him and hes like the rest of us . more nazis killed the better i guess ?

 

I have heared it suggested that Spielburg has an anti-german message, thats why almost every german soldier in SPR was a skinhead (and looked far more like your average russian soldier to me). As for the SS issue, there were not as many around as he seems to suggest and they werent quite as useless though I do not think the troops they hit in the dike episode were SS (I am not sure of this though).

 

I think the reason that the SS are showed more than regular Germans is because the majority of the German soldiers had no knowledge of the Holocaust and they cannot really be blamed. Also, if you show SS soldiers being killed it makes people happier than to see some poor German soldier who's the same as all the other regular servicemen who were fighting on both sides being killed.

 

How is it anti-German if German troops (SS or Wehrmacht) are shown as the enemy in a WW2 film or TV show? Who else would the US Army be fighting in Western Europe during WW2? Political correctness has run amok if Hollywood has to apologize for showing US troops repeatedly defeating SS troops in a WW2 TV show or film.

[ 10. November 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Ahab ]

 

Stefan: I think the line "Look Sir...they're SS!!" as one easy company trooper turns up the lapels of a fallen SS soldier, is proof positive that they were fighting SS (in the show)

Squirrel: Sorry mate, have to agree with Ahab on this one, even though I am a big supporter of your average conscripted German Heer soldier forced into the Nazi Regime.

Too many new entrants to History are (unfortunately) relying on films and shows like "Band of Brothers" esp whos claim to fame is its authenticity, as a source of reference. This show will outlast a lot of reading material in popular culture ... One must not sacrifice PC for facts, future generations must know how things were to avoid the same mistakes in the future.

A good blow by blow critique of the movie telling us the supposed faults of the show VS the "facts" is on:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/bandofbrothers3.html

With an introduction to the characters (real and actors) on: http://www.101airborneww2.com/bandofbrothers.html

It is very detailed and I highly recommend it as it kind of puts all worshipers of the show (which I am a bit) back down to earth a bit.

[ 11. November 2003, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

On question one: There were eventually quite a few SS units in Normandy and, they were some of the best units in the SS: 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th and,12th SS Panzer and 17th SS PzGr. I can't give you an explaination for Speilburg's prediliction for protraying them in his movies though. Of course for SPR, the movie takes place before any SS units arrived. Well, for that matter, there weren't any Tigers in Normandy at that point either.

On question two. Weirder things have happened in war. It is possible though unlikely. That particular incident could have happened to either side and did. Bad luck, a wrong order, poor timing, almost any combination of bad moves and one side can get trashed by the other in horribly lopsided battles.
More than once, the Germans found out the hard way that US units could generate far more firepower than they themselves could. In the Mortain counteroffensive on US infantry battalion fired over 6000 60mm mortar rounds in less than a day as an example. US units with their mass of motorized transport (yes, even "leg" infantry and parachute units had a number of jeeps assigned per battalion) could haul and shoot prodigious amounts of ammunition at the Germans. This doesn't even include the often overwhelming artillery advantage the US had.
So, yes it is possible for one or two German companies of infantry to attack, blunder into, or whatever a single US company and be literally shot to pieces in short order. Those Parachute units by the by, had 12 .30 cal machine guns, usually an equal number of BAR's 'aquired' locally(initially these weren't on TO&E but were authorized in late 1944)and 3 60mm mortars. They had an authorized strength of either 127 or 176 men (depends on which TO&E they are orgainzed under).

 

Thanks for that TA, very enlightning, although I have to quiz you on something:

I was quite confused about the timeline in SPR, but I knew that there were 14 tigers delivered the 06th of june 1944 to the 2nd Kompanie of the s.SS.Pz.Abt 102 which was in the area of St-Pol, south of Calais. This same battalion showed up on the 04 of july near Cauville and on the 10 of july , the s.SS.Pz.Abt 102 was present on Hill 112 until capturing it on the 11th.

Even though it was a month later when the Tigers showed up for battle ... I think it wasn't beyond the realms of impossibilty that there were tigers in normandy "en-route" which stumbled onto Hank's holding force. - However I think the fact that there is only one working panther left in the world is the real reason

 

According to the KTB of the SS Schwere Pz Abt. 102/502 they had no contact with US forces in Normandie. Only the 2nd and 17th W-SS were engaged during the time period of the movie and we know they were only equipped with 3 armor types and without heavy armor support from an SS heavy panzer unit.

~E

 

The Tiger units in Normandy were : -

Schwere Pz. Abt. 503
Routed through Paris and arrived Dreux July 2nd.

Schwere SS-Pz. Abt. 101
Routed via Paris and arrived near Villers-Bocage June 12th.

Schwere SS-Pz. Abt. 102
Travelled from Versailles ; assembled near Cauville July 4th.

All these units moved to Normandy from the North-East region and would not have traversed the Cherbourg Peninsula which is where I believe most of SPR is supposed to have happened ?

( The above information has been found in Eric Lefevre's 'Panzers In Normandy - Then & Now' by After The Battle publications ).

 

Oops, think I must have missed that one, though it depends what bit of the film we are talking about.

As for the showing german troops being anti-German, that is not my point, the point is more to do with the fact that whenever any German soldiers appear they are skinheads and every film he makes seems to be connected with evil (watch 'fallen' for example). I am not too sure about it, as I said it is a theory I have heared suggested. I reckon the skinhead thing is simply to encourage people to associate SS troops with thugs, to encourage the kind of response in people today that it would have elicited in the 40's (in the same way that Moulin Rouge used modern music because people would be totally unable to relate to the kind of music that was played originally). Either way I am not sure, I reckon Spielburg is simply taking artistic lisence to create impressions in todays youth that would originaly have been experienced by the youth of the 40's.

 

Certainly these are 'identical' to those Spielberg's skinheads...

 

If I may put my two cents in gentlemen. As for the encounter with the SS that takes place during that episode of Band of Brothers, I think it was "Breaking Point", the fight took place exactly as was portrayed in the film. According to Stephen Ambrose in "Band of Brothers" Easy Company surprised that group of SS soldiers as they were assembling to attack the battalion command post down the road. As for the American casualties, there were more than you see in the film, many as a result of German artillery. As the war dragged on Hitler more and more distrusted the regular army and liked to use SS troops anywhere possible, and there were definietly plenty of SS units in Normandy in '44. As for the SS always getting kicked around, remember they were not the force they were not the highly trained, youthful, elite force they were early in earlier in the war. You could also argue that Speilberg always uses American elite in his films, i.e: Airborne/Rangers.

Secondly to adress the skinhead issue. Speilberg does not make the soldiers in his films look like skinheads, rather the skin heads try to like the soldiers of the time. It is important to realize who came first. Although I would not doubt Speilberg has some anti German tendancies, because he is Jewish.

 

Welcome aboard, Daniel! Hope you enjoy yourself here! And your comments are always welcomed.

 

Just wanted to point out........

if you pay close attention the "Band of Brothers" episode, before the attack starts Captain Winters talks to 2 other commanders (i dont remember the names)and says "You take 10 men on the right flank, you take 10 men on the left flank, and ill take 10 men up the middle". Thats not the entire Company, its a Platoon of 33 men.

 

Unless he wanted to keep the other platoons in reserve or they may have taken hefty casualties. Which episode are you talking about?

 

From my understanding, the men that portrayed the SS in SPR were in fact from the British Living History Organization "1. Battle Group" depicting LAH troops. They were, to my knowledge, forced to shave their heads to portray the troops as the director wanted them to appear. Many of these reenactors had spent years perfecting appropriate period hairstyles, and were quite dismayed at this prospect.

Vis-a-vis, the only real reason why a Soldat would have a shaved head in '44 was because he had been deloused after serving on the Eastern Front, which is, in thise case, entirely possible, although I would again object.

Most of the SS units that were in France during the Normandy Invasions had only recently refitted, and therefore would have been infused with either fresh troops, or recent transfers.

In conclusion, the hairstyles of the men depicted in SPR always struck me as wrong.

 

Furthermore - watch Stalingrad, which in my opinion, accurately portrays period hairstyles.

To be honest, I really don't understand why Skinheads shaved their heads. It doesn't make any sense to me, unless its a uniformity issue. Regardless, this may be a discussion for some other place, as I would like to remain on-topic.

 

i was talking about the episode "Crossroads", also where Captain Winters because the commander of the 2nd Battalion

 

Hey mate, I think you'll find the reenactors are called "2nd Battle Group". Never heard of a "1. Battle Group", they also filmed in Saving private Ryan and they have a full webpage of their experiences there. One quote which stands out is this:

Website is here:
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/sbg1/film.htm