Tank identification mystery?

One of Carl's recent photos shows a group of 4 Russian tanks knocked out or abandoned, and the photo was labelled as 4xT-34s.

"This is apparently in early 1942 during the Rasputa (Winter Thawout) I can't yet pin point the area but think its in the A.O fro Army Group Center or A.G. South? I hope to know more soon as these arrive. Notice the wet land where the moving around was going on? Also, the nearest tank has a good sized damage hole near right side rear. Must have been one hell of a good hit to do that kind of damage."

The front 3 tanks are definitely early T-34s, but the rearmost one is a bit of a problem;

- The 'Mickey Mouse' ear hatches do not appear on T-34s until very late '42 as far as I can ascertain.
- There is a definite vertical lump between the front mudguards, which could either be the driver position of a late model BT-7/BT-7M, or just possibly the MG or an open driver hatch of a T-34.
- The back deck has an object bent upwards which looks most like an exhaust to me, which fits with a BT-7, not a T-34 in any of the common models. It could however be an engine cover.
- The gap between the mudguards and the top of the tracks does not seem to be the same as the other T-34s, but it also doesn't fit well with a BT-7M, although it can occasionally be seen that on the BT they would have brackets under the mudguard for hanging the tracks on when in 'wheel' mode, which could be the reason, as could damage or mud perhaps.
- The mudguards appear to bend down towards the front, which they don't on a T-34, but damage could cause that and the view angle isn't great to tell for sure.

Bottom line is, with Carl's permission, I would like to throw it open to everyone to see if we can definitely ident the rear tank?

I personally think BT-7 late model, but I'm not even close to 100% sure.

 

Obviously Carl would be happy if anyone has any more info on the photo too

 

A few examples of the BT-7 most likely models;

 

And the T-34 models which probably date the photo later;

 

Another very slightly possible candidate could be the T-50, although all the photos found so far have square turret hatches, it is just possible there were some with round ones;

If that was the case it would make the scene most likely in the Leningrad region where they were probably all deployed;

(pic is of a model, but was the best view I found of the potentially identifying features)

 

My money is on the BT 7

 

The T34/76 with the UTZM Turret would fit in the early summer 1942 time period.

 

Pretty sure the UZTMs all had one of the hatches in a sort of cupola which would have raised it up above the level of the other by 6" or so. Could easily be that some early ones didn't have that though, so you may be right - it's not clear from what I found exactly when they started messing with the turret designs, but late summer 42 seems more likely. Of course it could be that there were some prototypes from earlier that made it onto the battlefield, even from the original design team and their assorted models.

And of course the period indicated with the photo may not be bang on

 

Yep Nigel, here´s a good drawing to this version. Scroll down to the birds view.

Google-Ergebnis für http://www.o5m6.de/BT-7%201935%20Rear_small.jpg

 

Ive found this if this helps, Two round turret hatches the engine cover is also open and you can just make out the exhausts

View attachment 13080 The BT 7m

 

That's the model I think it is Darren - Uli the one in your drawings (1935 model) has the cylinder turret, with vertical sides and square hatches so doesn't seem to be the right one - that changed in the '39 model and the 'M' model to the sloped sided turret and round hatches. Nice detailed drawings though, and show the mudguard detail in particular well.

 

BT-7 Model 1937(BT-7-2) or later. From the angle of the hull and the quality of the photo, it is hard to judge if it is an M or not.

I think this is the link Ulrich wanted to post.
Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - BT-7 Model 1937 Fast Tank

 

Hi Takao - very glad to get your input - Think you're bang on and also think you're right ref Uli - makes a lot more sense now although he did still vote for the T-34 at the same time which was confusing great link too.

 

The longer I look at it, I believe you all are correct in that it is a BT tank. I noticed the rear doesnt have as much of a slant to it as the nearer tanks do.

Those who didnt get reps got salutes those who didnt get salutes got reps. Thanks Gents.

The guy I got it from listed it as 4 T-34s Koed, and as my glasses are out being fixed, I cant "see" details like i normally can. Thank you Nigel for figuring this enigma out ;-))

 

You're welcome - it looks like we probably have an answer but there still could be some more dissenters yet to come forward - it is probably the most perfect angle/situation to get that tank that doesn't quite make it clear straight away

P.S. you should try and get him to knock 25% off the price - he only sold you 3 T-34s

 

Heh heh, I like that-save me 25% off my next auction ;-))

I was also wondering if you had an idea of what exact model that KV-1 is-meaning early or late version? Ive seen quite a few posted on ebay lately and this one seems to have some slight differences in it. ;-))

 

Can open it up if you/anyone else wants but sent you PM ref the KV-1A (1940 model) that I think covers things

 

Go for it mate. Im not good enough to see things you tank guys see-so it would be great to be 100% sure on it ;-))

 

Thanks Takao! Nigel, i like weird things...haha

 

As we all should Uli

Carl also has asked if we can bang our collective heads together about this photo - looking in particular for any info about the exact model of KV-1 that could date or place the photo accurately.

I think it's a fairly standard KV-1a 1940 model, but there are a few things which could point to something else, perhaps different factory specific items?

what do you all think?

I also believe the lonesome road wheel on the front right could be from our friend the BT-7, but not certain - most had a solid front idler?