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The myths of WWII (Eastern Europe)

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by LJAd, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The Germans barely touched Russia itself. Look at the link below to grasp how big the country is. They had to fight their way through Poland, the Baltic countries, Belarus and the Ukraine before they even entered Russian soil. So, they reached the volga - big deal! It's in the western borders of Russia itself.

    My wife's family (the mothers side) are from Belarus, and they were moved to Izhevsk deep in the interior where they were put to work building armaments. Along with them, entire factories and industries were moved east. Izhevsk is on its own river system with massive iron and coal deposits nearby, and so far east that the war was just something they read about in the newspaper. If the Soviet Union had been a democracy, perhaps the Germans might have had a chance. But under Stalin, entire regions and industries could be shifted a thousand miles with the stroke of a pen.

    That depth, that size, that autocratic power, was something the Germans had not taken into consideration. Even if they had taken Moscow, the leadership would have just shifted to Yekaterinburg or Irkutsk. The war might have lasted a year longer, but they'd have still lost.

    http://lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/eurasia-pol-2006.jpg
     
  2. Hufflepuff

    Hufflepuff Semi-Frightening Mountain Goat

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    Well, yes, of modern day Russia the Germans didn't take over too much of... but back then it was the Soviet Union, and all Russians considered it thier soil, Russian or not. That's why they say "on the Ukraine" back then in translation as opposed to "in the Ukraine" today. It was all a matter of the Soviet Union back then, which was easy to label as simply "Russia" in the minds of most westerners back then.
     
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  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    It was the vastness of the Soviet Union that was significant not that of Russia. To much of the important area of Russia was in the west. Fortunaly there was a lot of the Soviet Union that had to be traversed before one reached Russia.
    Of course it was not possible in WWII. Had the revolution resulted in the Russian Empire breaking up with the Ukraine and Belorussia being independent it might have been possible but hardly necessary.
     
  4. thunder_love

    thunder_love Member

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    Well if the capture of Moscow would have been achieved,it might have caused some rifts within the Soviets leadership,but the question is how much have been possible,since most of the Soviet aparatchiks were loyal to Stalin.But since they feared and respected Stalin, he could have been easily overthrown.
     
  5. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    ?????????
     
  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The USSR was not a monolith, especially in 1941. Russia was the USSR and the other nations were just subordinates used to feed Russian power. The Ukraine in particular had been plundered and millions had died of famine to feed Russia. The industrial heart was within Russia and as the Germans advanced, that industry was shifted east. the workers required to power that industry were dumped in cattle cars and shifted east as well. Those that died were the weak, and nobody within the party cared. The strong survived and were put to work making the steel, guns, and munitions that were needed.
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    That's a myth, indeed.
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Tell that to the members of my family that lived it.
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Your post implies that Russians had privileges over the other ethnic groups. However, the most of the Soviet Union's leaders were non-Russians: a Georgian, two Ukrainians, a Cossack and a Siberian. Only Gorbachev was the Russian and he dissolved the USSR.

    Of course, personal perception of reality may differ, depending on personal experiences. Both Yeromenko and Demanjuk were Ukrainians but their perception of the USSR were quite opposite. Mine and yours differ too.

    I don't see any problem here. :cool:
     
  10. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Read about the forced famines in the Ukraine, or the expulsion and murders of Tatars, Chechens, Balts, Cossacks and other national and ethnic groups. An estimated 20 million people died in those episodes and a like number were forcibly relocated.

    The USSR was a centralized power - the industry, the food, the power, was all sucked into Russia and the fact that Stalin was a Georgian had nothing to do with it.
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You forget to mention that Russians suffered too under the red terror!

    PS:
    [​IMG]
     
  12. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Of course they did, but they were not singled out as an ethnic or national group for mass deportation and murder.
     
  13. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Nobody was singled out in the USSR because national and racial segregation were punishable by law (translated to English):
    A couple of posts before you have suggested me to read. I have read serious literature, plenty of it. Have you?
     
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  14. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Is that a joke? Millions of people were deported and murdered based on national and ethnic identity.

    Yes, but I tend to discount apologists for Stalin. Perhaps you should do the same?
     
  15. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Lets take a breath here and refocus on the topic of the thread.
     
  16. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Good idea Belasar! :)
     
  17. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    The Balkan operation did not delay the attack because the units used were only suppose to support the Ukrainian operation.
    from THE GERMAN CAMPAIGN IN THE BALKANS (SPRING 1941): PART III

    1. First Panzer Group under the command of Generaloberst (General) Ewald van Kleist. This force was to thrust via Nis to Belgrade, forming one arm of the pincers that was to knock Yugoslavia out of the war. Since it was subordinated to Second Army as early as 13 April, First Panzer Group and its operations will not be discussed in this part of the study.
    2. XL Panzer Corps, under General der Panzertruppen (Lieutenant General) Georg Stumme, was composed of the 9th Panzer Division, the reinforced 1st SS Motorized Infantry Regiment, and the 73d Infantry Division. These forces were concentrated in western Bulgaria facing the Yugoslav border.
    3. XVIII Mountain Corps, under General der Gebirgstruppen (Lieutenant General) Franz Boehme, consisted of the 2d Panzer Division, 5th and 6th Mountain Divisions, 72d Infantry Division, and the reinforced 125th Infantry Regiment. These troops moved into assembly areas in southern Bulgaria opposite the Greek frontier.
    4. XXX Infantry Corps, under General der Artillerie (Lieutenant General) Otto Hartmann, was composed of the 50th and 164th Infantry Divisions.
    5. L Infantry Corps, under General der Kavallerie (Lieutenant General) Georg Lindemann and composed of the 46th, 76th, and 198th Infantry Divisions, was detraining in Romania and did not participate in Operation MARITA.
    6. 16th Panzer Division was deployed behind the Turkish-Bulgarian border to support the Bulgarian forces in case of a Turkish attack.
    First panzer group did not participate in the attack
    So as you can see only three PZ div contributed, which did not affect German ability to attack.
     
  18. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Thanks Steve for an interesting post, but I am afraid that the presented data refer just to Operation Marita and do not include the troops for an invasion of Yugoslavia, codenamed "Punishment".

    EDIT: the strength of the Axis forces was 700,000!
     
  19. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Invasion of Yugoslavia 1941_ Report by a German General, 1947
    I had asked for Yugoslavia, missed it was only Greece. 2nd army was used for the invasion of Yugoslavia. 2nd amy was not scheduled to be activated for Barbarossa until after the Pripyet marshes had been reached. on page 21 it talks about the bad weather and the difficulties in assembling in Romania. Group Kleist was used, but the resistance was so negligable that the armisistance was signed mid April still leaving time for group Kleist to be available in May.
     
  20. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    It should be taken into consideration that the Luftflotte 4 of the German Air Force (Luftwaffe), with a strength of seven Combat Formations (Kampfgruppen) had been committed to the campaign in the Balkans! That's significant: the same formation was used later to bomb Stalingrad to rubble.
     

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