This is kind of a "Here's what I know, what else is there?" thread. My sources on MG are nowhere near as plentiful as I'd like, but... (Also in regards to a PM... not too bad from memory, eh Martin?!) schwere Panzer Company Hummel- Originally created as one fo the Alarm companys from Training Battlaion 500. Alarm was raised for Market Garden, and the Hummel Tigers were entrained night of the 18th. The tanks had to de-train at Bocholt, due to a blocked railway line. Hence, the Tigers had to make an 80km road march to Arnhem. Only two made it tho Arnhem evening of the 19th- the rest had trouble on the road march and had to be serviced before arriving. Dammit... completely skipped my mind to simply note how many Tigers Hummel possessed, despite that Zwarts clearly has that info. The two Tigers that did arrive evening of Tuesday the 19th, thoe of Leutnant Knaack and Feldwebel Barneki- were put under command of KGr Brinkmann and sent into action almost immediately, around 8pm. In an apparently poorly planned and rushed action, Knaack's Tiger was knocked out, and two crewmembers killed, by anti tank fire from the British in some of the close in streets. Schneider in TIC II appears to claim that both of these Tigers were disabled. After this limited and rather unsuccessful action, the Tigers fo s.Pz.Kp. Hummel- now including the stragglers- were used in a more suitable role- pounding the buildings occupied by the British from greater range. On thursday teh 21st, Kp. Hummel was re-deployed near Elstunder KGr Knaust. Some rather significant battles occurred in this are between the Tigers and acompanying panzers and the British armor. Friday the 22nd, 5 Tigers from Hummel were knocked out by the British 214th infantry Brigade (with accompanying armor?). Schneider does not seem to mention these losses in the Elst area. s.Pz.Abt. 506 Unit had a rather less significant role in the fighting. For one thing, the Tiger IIs from the 506th did not even arrive in the area (at Zevenaar) until the night of September 23/24. Deployed: 1 Kp./ --> Aachen 2 Kp./ --> Elst under 10SS Pz. Div. 3 Kp./ --> Oosterbeek under 9SS Pz. Div. 9/25- one of the tanks with 3 Kp. (?), attached to KGr Von Allworden, knocked out in close urban fighting by British Paras. According to Zwarts, this was the only Tiger II lost around Oosterbeek. 'Course, this was mainly due to the fact that the Tiger IIs really could not be utilized very well- the tight urban areas where much of the combat occurred simply was not suitable to the size and bulk of the TIger IIs. Interesting note- this is from Zwarts- it appears that two Jagdtigers may well have been attached to s.Pz.Abt. 506 for testing purposes. Zwarts has a photo of a knocked-out Jagdtiger supposedly in the Elst area from this time. Also according to Zwarts, British reports claim two Ferdinands were knocked out in the area, but there were definetely no units fielding Ferdinands in the area. Hence... was the 506th testing two new Jagdtigers, at least one of which hence got knocked out? Also, Schneider and Zwarts seem to disagree on the losses during this time. Even in just Zwarts- in one area he seems to claim 4 Tiger IIs lost in the area, while in another caption claims 2 Tiger IIs lost. Then Schneider seems to claim 6 Tiger II losses in actions around Oosterbeek and Elst. Sources- Marcellus Zwarts, German Armored Units at Arnhem, September 1944. Wolfgang Schneider, Tigers in Combat I & II. Well... what did I miss?
Well now, can I just quietly say.... WELCOME BACK, CRAZYD ! ! ! ! ! Now, I've got to go away and think about Tigers at Arnhem..... [ 26. August 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]
This is starting to give me a headache - of course, things aren't made easier by the fact that every tank knocked out at Arnhem was claimed to be 'a Tiger', rather as was later to happen in the Ardennes..... I'm always fascinated by the Jagdtiger ; a near-mythical beast ! PS : this one's NOT at Arnhem !
Quote: "Zwarts has a photo of a knocked-out Jagdtiger supposedly in the Elst area from this time" The colour pic is actualy 2 JagdTigers 'back to back'. The photo location is hotly contested and there is no evidence of JagdTigers ever having been used in 1944.
Back to CrazyD's original posting - Hummel started out with 14 x Tiger 1s. Definitely only 1 Tiger II ( 'King Tiger' ) was lost in Oosterbeek. This was the much-photographed machine disabled in Weverstraat and seen in the film 'Theirs Is The Glory'. When you visit the area today, it's unbelievable how the crew even managed to drive such a gigantic vehicle down this very narrow suburban lane....
No, that one isn't. That is X3 of Kompanie Ernst or, 1/512 of Jgpz Abt 512 in the Ruhr pocket were it was abandoned after breaking down. Lt. Ernst was the only command in the Ruhr pocket to formally surrender at Iserholm. I have several really good photos of his JadgTigers wheeling into the town square and the subsequent mustering of the unit to surrender.
Just to add to the confusion, Janusz Ledwoch's book 'Jagdtiger' shows two views of the one in the photo marked as 'X7'....Photos taken at Obernetphen in the Ruhr.
And Devey's book on the Jagdtiger has 6 photos of the beast in the town of Obernephen. It is cleary marked as 'X7'
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=32930&start=360 For a pic of the 2 JagdTigers in colour.
Thanks for posting, mkenny - it's interesting to see the colour version. IMHO, the background and the trees simply do not look like the Elst area.
Nice, good info. One of the things that crossed my mind... according to Zwarts, only two of the Tiger Is from Kp. Hummel made it to Arnhem on the 19th, with the rest following, some obviously by the next day. In the spirit of the whole logistics issue, what was the timeframe when the rest of the Hummel Tigers got to Arnhem? As they were on a road march, I would have to imagine that repairs would have been rather inconvenient.... but how inconvenient. To second Martin, very nice posting the color version, mkenny. So... "The photo location is hotly contested and there is no evidence of JagdTigers ever having been used in 1944. "... Has the "contest" been resolved?? mkenny, I recall some of your work with photo-identification... any theories of your own on this one?
I wonder if SS Schwere Pz Abt 102 would of made any difference in the final outcome if it would not have lost all it's armor at the Seine..........yeah it's a what-if ........ apoligies
A "what-if" scenario?? we never have them on this site, what were you thinking?! An interesting what-if at that... When you ask if the s.SS.Pz.Abt 102 would have affected the "final outcome"- do you mean the outcome of Market Garden? That would seem somewhat of a moot point, as the Germans were able to keep the alies from Arnhem with what they had. Although I imagine the SS 102nd could have certainly kept XXX Corps from advancing as far as they did... A worthy hi-jacking, I'd say, if there is an inclination to pursue it! Although- I would like to hear if mkenny does have any theories as to where that Jagdtiger photo was taken. Has research ruled out the possibility of Zwarts being correct, that these were in fact Jagdtigers attached to the 502nd for testing? (I love little mysteries like that!)
If the Germans hadn't lost so much armour at Falaise/the Seine, most likely Market-Garden would never have happened. The Allies were prepared to take a risk, but not that much of a risk.....
The name Tiger was easy to use, so I think it fair to say that most of the Allies called the German tanks "Tigers" There were not many "Heavy tank battalions" In Normandy, If you did come across them? then there would be no trouble in telling them apart. The Mark-4s, the Panthers, and the Tiger are as different as chalk to cheese! We did discover in a wood in Belgium a "King Tiger" (I only ever saw one)This King Tiger was sat there in amongst a huge German ammo amd weapons dump. There were weapons of every description in that wood. Huge quantities of weapons and equipment.. None of the British liked the flame throwers much. Well, We didn't! Now if you go to a certain wood in Belgium, and dig down deep, there you will find a load of flame throwers, as used by infantry...The round tank type that was carried on a soldiers back. I bet after 60 years thet are in a poor state by now. Brian
