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USA on the Russian Front? A new perspective

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by GIJOE, Feb 3, 2004.

  1. GIJOE

    GIJOE Member

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    Hello all, new to the board, big time WW2 buff (not an expert by any means!)

    Had to login to chime in on this.

    Ahh, USA vs Russia in 1945, interesting opinions stated by all, here is mine.

    I am assuming that this is strictly the USA vs Russia with no allies on either side, so no Britain, no china, no Western Europe etc. Oh yeah and no nukes either correct? Here we go.

    Advantages

    USA: Morale, Pride, Production, LOGISTICS, combination of cultures of the world in the science and strategy department, support of NAZI germany (Tis true, they wanted our support to defeat the Russians) untapped man power, economy.

    Russia: Numbers in the front, fear of failure, territory, WINTER, quality of first run tanks in the conflict, location.

    Weaknesses:
    USA: Armor not in the same class as the russians, no knowledge of Russian terrain, smaller amounts of troops, inferior guns.

    Russia: Civil unrest, Raw materials, Troop morale, inferior military strategist (IE No regard for life) Airforce in terms of quality of planes (they were wooden for Christ's sake) and severe shortage of quality pilots. Navy is terrible.

    Okay, that said, here is what I (keyword, I) think goes down.


    Russia immediatly conquers the majority of Land Locked Europe,no contest, the US pulls back troops to Western France and Norway to protect the atlantic seaboardl and and digs in. With daily reinforcements of troops and supplies the US can and will hold Western France and the seaboard for as long as it takes to gain air superiority.

    The US airforce starts to wear down the Russian Airforce (no contest), the US Navy Controls the seas(again, no contest).Utilizing technology from the captured (er freed..) German industrial Engineers, the US begins to build far better tanks and far more powerful engines for their equipment.

    Russia, already downtrodden from the intense war with the Germans, also tried to expand their technology utilizing West Berlin "Slaves" think the borg, star trek, and now begins to bring in reinforcements to the western front.

    This is a bloody battle no doubt, but as customary, the Russians lose 3 troops to every 1 American man killed, the numbers start to hurt, they can't continue the constant assaults and are forced to dig in around germany and Austria, hoping to hold out long enough to get support from the motherland.


    By now, six months in, the United states starts sending in long range bombers from the Asian theatre, hitting not the cities, but the bridges,mines, and factories of the Russians, this begins ineffectively as the USA does not have accurate information as to where said interests are located.

    After one year of blockade and constant bombing by and unchalleged US airforce, Morale is low in Russia, the people grow weery of losing son after son, daughter after daughter. Seeing this as a sign of weakness, the USA begins propoganda, agents infiltrate large cities, spouting freedom and riches, real lives of choice, something foreign to this marxist wet dream.

    To be continued..... [​IMG]
     
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  2. GIJOE

    GIJOE Member

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    Just realized this not the what if forum, sorry, someone can move this if they so choose.
     
  3. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Hello, GIJOE and and a warm welcome to the Forums ! Unfortunately, you've joined at a time when we are having some uncharacteristic tech glitches, especially on the 'What If?' and 'WW2 General' headings.

    So we're not just dumping your postings ! Please bear with us and enjoy the Forum - feel free to browse back and 'dredge up' any older threads which may interest you ! [​IMG]
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    I second the warm welcomes and hope to see you here more often.

    Looking forward to your continuatiion of this thread.

    BTW, did you know that exactly one American soldier in ww2 fought with the Russians. I forget his name but, he was part of a downed aircrew and who had been captured. He escaped the POW camp he was in, and figured his best chances would be to head for the Russian lines.

    He made his way to the Russsian lines, turned himself in and volunteered to fight alongside hie Russian Comrades. He did so for a month and after that was able to make his way to American lines. This man also is still living. [​IMG]
     
  5. GIJOE

    GIJOE Member

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    No doubt if the Russians and Americans would have put aside the political and philosophical differences, the world would be a different place right now, and I don't necessarily mean better....

    "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

    Part 2 coming when I get time here at work


    ~M~
     
  6. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Welcome aboard, GIJOE! ;) Hope you enjoy yourself here! [​IMG]

    Just have some comments on your post.

    Russian planes from 1943 onwards were absolutely not mediocre aircraft. In the contrary, most of them had supperb technical advantages and characteristics. They might not have been very sophisticated, but certainly very strong and very good. The same can be said about the pilots. Initially not very well-trained, but many squadrons were full of experienced veterans who became just as good as any other pilot not by training but by combat experience —perhaps not very practical, but very effective indeed.

    The USSR didn't need much a fleet. Being as big as she was, her access to the sea was very limited and of vert low strategical value.

    Just those two things. [​IMG]
     
  7. GIJOE

    GIJOE Member

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    Thanks for the input, although I have to say that my (pro-american) literature stated that the end run yaks were 50-60% wood due to material shortages, now are you calling my American text books wrong? LOL :D

    There are 3 sides to every story,

    Mine, Yours, and the Truth!

    "Everything you have been taught is a lie, seek the truth" < My father when I graduated College.
     
  8. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I never said they weren't made of wood. Indeed they were, and that's why certain planes were incredibly fast and manœuvrable.

    And if I'm not mistaken, another very famous and very good plane in WWII was made mostly of wood. Have you heard of DeHavilland Mosquito? I guess you have. [​IMG] I'd just advice you not to say bad things about it, because Martin Bull might jump at you... :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  9. GIJOE

    GIJOE Member

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    I dare not disrespect the legendary Mosquito!

    Wood and bad weather=problems I assume!

    Another plane that never got the respect it deserved= Hawker Hurricane!
     
  10. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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  11. FramerT

    FramerT Ace

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    Was'nt the Zero made out of wood,too?Oh yes,Hello GI JOE! FramerT.
     
  12. Kaiser Heer

    Kaiser Heer Member

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    Being an avid fan of ww2 statistics i thought i might clear up a few of the statistcs which are being thrown around here.
    ive used credible sources from books so they cant be unreliabible like internet sites etc.

    ok, first off:

    Actually alexanderr isnt that far off the mark even if those figures do sound incredibly high. -

    According to ' 'Russia's war' - by Richard Overy, p236

    The 3.1 Million axis soldiers in the east faced almost 6.4 million of the enemy; the 3000 German aircraft were vastly outnumbered by the 13 400 they opposed; their 2300 tanks could not match the 5800 soviet machines. During 1944 the gap continued to widen"

    other books also state similar figures. for example in 'The Road to Berlin' - by John Erickson, p.429 -

    "Soviet strength in the field climed to over six and a half million men, supported by more than 100 000 guns and mortars, 13 000 tanks and SP guns, over 15 000 aircraft and no less than 500 rifle divisions being prepared for the final apocalyptic battle" (this being at the end of november 1944)

    i know it sounds incredible, but many incredible things were done during world war 2 and these sources support the statistics.

    like mentioned in the above sources, even in november 1944 they numbered over 6 million.

    to the original discussion, i think both sides have made very good points and very strong arguements but i would still have to side with the USSR defeating the USA in a confrontation in 1945.
     
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  13. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I would say the same, I'll just add that that could have been possible only in the short-term.

    And certainly, Soviet Armed Forces never had less than 3,5 million men. This very number wcomposed only the forces for the final assault on Germany in 1945 - from the Baltic to Czechoslovakia -, and there were still many troops in Hungary, Romania, Scandinavia, the Baltic countries, Eastern Prussia, the Balcans and the Soviet Union.
    Including auxiliaries, I do think that the Soviet Union had more than 12 million men and women in uniform.
     
  14. fuser

    fuser Member

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    How come you could say USA had morale and pride but USSR not.... Red Army's morale and pride was at the peak at that time....

    Once again a false assumption.... Why you think it would happen?? The soviet losses were high at start of the war for numerous reasons like complete air superiority of germans catching Red Army when a huge reorganization was going on and many others and not because they were
    incompetent fighters...or they don't had good generals.

    Western allies had air supeoririty in their front but still german inflicted more losses to them.. Why?? Then look at the ratio at france or crete or africa or the losses western allies suffered to break gustav line... What was the ratio??

    C'mon soviet air force was very much intact and capable to repel any air raids...
     
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  15. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Welcome to the forum GIJOE. As you can imagine this topic has indeed ben discussed in detail by many rogues here. Hope you dont mind if I net pick a little. :D

    Begore any discussion begins, first we must determine which country starts the war, as a surprise attack will surely be a significant advantage.

    No morale and pride for the Red Army? Unlike the United States, the "Ivan" was fighting for his country and ended up storming Berlin. Few can ever imagine the kind of pride and morale a Red Army soldier had standing in front of the Reichstag in 1945.

    The Soviet Union too had many cultures from around the world, just from different parts of the world and had no shortages of scientists or scholars and was ahead of the U.S. in certain fields. ;)

    Civil unrest? Troop morale couldnt have been higher!

    Inferior military strategists? Not familiar with Zhukov or Rokossovsky are we? ;) As for the disregard for human life... well that is mostly a myth. The Soviet Generals; Zhukov especially cared very much for his troops they just couldnt do very much in the beginning of the war.

    Biggest weakness for the Americans IMO, would be democracy. People get tired of the war far quicker...
     
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  16. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Holy Crap, I like to see both sides of the Fence but this is a Little unrealistic. Just be lucky Churchill as the US ++++ never Launched "Operation Unthinkable" in 1945.
    Was about to Drop a Few Bombs Like they Did to Japan. Many Historians +++++++ Have stated he should of Carried it out, In this matter the Cold War ++++ would
    of never happened.

    If It wasn't for US, Canada, Britannia,++++++ Russia would of been Whistling Dixie and fighting the Germans with Sling-Shots.:D
     
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  17. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    You know when I studied my ancestry I was shocked to find that I had ancestors in Moscow. I had a couple who served in the Red army. Both are deceased now. I have interacted with the surviving members of the family via email and they have been very respectful but "careful" when dealing with me. My point being I don't think the USSR truly ever considered going to war with us. Every Russian I have met has been very respectful to me. I have never been given a reason to dislike them and they have seemingly a very friendly demeamor and enjoy sharing. I have some family in high places and I know our two governments work more closely together than what the typical American and Russian realizes. Just felt I needed to say this. I find these threads interesting but at the same time a part of me does not like the thought of such a war.
     
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  18. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    C;
    Joseph Beyrle and I think I might have read his incredible story in Elementary School (the guy actually was in a Soviet cavalry charge? Or maybe that was an English account?); Joseph Beyrle - WW2 American Badass
    http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/jrbeyrle.htm
    And his son is the current US Ambassador to Russia.
    Sadly this great American warrior has passed away. WOADLE (worthy of a David Lean epic) on you, SGT Beyrle!
    http://www.1victory.org/gallery
    And I just ordered the book; http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Simple-Sounds-of-Freedom/Thomas-H-Taylor/e/9780375507861
    JeffinMNUSA
    PS... An earlier thread on the "Churchill Drives East" scenario; http://ww2f.com/western-europe/3403...ps-drive-soviet-union-out-eastern-europe.html
     
  19. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    Didn't the German military leaders comment that they did not feel that we could stop the Soviet armored hordes if we were to encounter them on the battlefield? I believe I read that somewhere.
     
  20. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Member

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    the americans fought the russians...in the air and by accident. i was reading the account of a german pilot ( cant find it at the moment ). and the best i can guess is this had to be near the end of the war when both the allies coming from the west and the soviets pushing from the east were within each others reach. but he ( the LW pilot ) talks about how he saw a group of russian ac and american P-51s going at it. obviously the americans mistook the soviets for LW fighters. the germans were suprised but happily took the opportunity to get the heck out of there.

    found it...it was part of eric hartmann's last interview:

    We took off on a mission to intercept Soviet bombers attacking Prague, and we counted many American made aircraft with Red Stars, part of your Lend Lease. But then there were American fighters also nearby, and I was above them all by a thousand meters. It seemed that the Americans and Russians were busy examining each other and were unaware that we were around. I gave the order to drop down through the Mustangs, then the Russian fighters, and through the bombers in just one hit and run attack, then we would get the hell out of there, since there were only the two of us. I shot down two P-51s quickly in my dive, and I then fired on a Boston bomber, scored good hits but it was not a kill. The second element also scored a kill against the Mustangs, and my wingman and I were all right. Suddenly the most amazing thing happened. The Soviet fighters and Americans began fighting each other, and the confusion worked for us. They must have not realized that it was a schwarm of Germans that started the whole thing! The Russian bombers dropped their bombs in panic and turned away. I saw three Yaks get shot down and a Mustang damaged trailing white smoke. That was my last fight against the Americans.
     

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