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What if... Italy had found the Oil under Libya?

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Von smallhousen, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    No, I get the "point" fully. You cannot be bothered to respond to anything other than your own posts. You also will now waffle for the next few posts in order to obscure the simple fact you had no idea what Ruge's position was in the summer of 1944. So now it is "I don't care what his actual rank and position was, I said he commanded the KM in the West so he did". Your "point" also doesn't exclude the possibility that Ruge was actually Marlene Dietrich in disguise.

    Is it at all possible for you to maintain even a facade of consistency in your rambling? Was Ruge the "de facto commander of the KM in the West" or was he an "insignifiant [sic]" liar?
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    There is no contradiction between the fact that Krancke was officialy commander of the KM in the West and that Ruge was de facto commander of the KM of the West .

    I did not say that Ruge was an insignifiant liar, this is your wrong interpretation .

    I said that he was almost insignifiant during the war, a lot of KM officers had a bigger and more important role , and I said also that after the war he belonged to the group of people working at the Historical Division,rewriting and falsifying the history of WWII,blaming Hitler for the defeat and denying that the WM was involved in the Holocaust, thus lying .
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    I don't get it? Oh you mean like in the movies where the guy is chased by the speeding car down the road and instead of darting into the woods on either side of the road where the car can not go, continues running straight down the nice smooth, paved road. When you put it like that it makes perfect sense.

    If the US was drifting into a war with Germany one must look at the reasons why. With each raid of the London Blitz (fall 1940-spring 1941), a act that served no tactical or strategic goal, hardened American public opinion. Unrestricted naval warfare struck a highly cherished American ideal equally stiffened US resolve. Invading Yugoslavia and Greece (spring 1941) showed Hitler had only one 'diplomatic' card to play, war. Invading Russia (summer 1941) showed Hitler had no bounds and would even invade nominal allies. Absent these events, all under the control of Hitler, any American entry into the war is slowed.

    Nor is your three conclusion's/statements anything but deeply flawed.

    Defeat of SU forces Great Britain to sue for peace. Why?

    Their position is no worse after a Soviet defeat than it was before it. Germany still can't cross the Channel and the bulk of the Wehrmacht is scattered across European Russia fighting a Partisan war and too far away to hurt Britain or even effectively aid the defense in the west all the while hoping the Soviets/Russians in the Urals don't get the urge to retake European Mother Russia. Even if they are not killing Germans at a high rate, they are tying down a vast number of them.

    The resources/industry of the western USSR would aid in the defense on NW Europe. Hardly, at least in the time frame available.

    In the event of a victory by Germany Industry would be smashed, mines caved in, well heads blown up, refineries destroyed. A decade or more would be needed to bring all this on line leaving only food to be exploited. Valuable as it is there is still some question just how well they can exploited it if Nazi race policy is executed as intended. Even so, a full belly isn't going to stop modern weapons of war, only men armed with adequate numbers of modern weapons of their own can do that.

    Germany had no chance of countering a Anglo-American alliance. Perhaps they could long enough to force a stalemate like Korea.

    Absent a invasion of the Soviet Union, one of the finest (as a measure of combat ability) army's and tactical air forces ever created would remain intact to face any Anglo-American onslaught. Just when do Allied Bomber's devastate German industry in the face of thousands of aircraft and aircrew not lost in the east? How soon could they secured air superiority over a possible landing site under the same condition's. Could Overlord succeed in the face of additional 50-70 first class, full strength and fully equipped divisions, many fully mobile?

    Before you cry Atomic Bombs, how likely is Churchill to allow their use so long as London is vulnerable to retaliation by gas or biological's? In any event Hitler could not factor that in anyway.

    History has shown that while democracy's have certain advantages in war, patience for victory in long wars is not one of them. That is the province of totalitarian states who are not subject to the vicissitudes of public opinion and regularly scheduled elections. Germany holds the proverbial high ground as Britain and her allies, absent the Soviet Union, must secure a landing on the European mainland. Historically the Anglo-Americans did this, but only after meat grinder of the Eastern Front has done its bloody work.
     
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  4. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sigh, this is descending into idiocy as usual.

    Krancke WAS the commander of the KM in the West. Thus his title. Kommandeur Marinegruppenkommando West.

    Ruge had ZERO command authority. He was NOT LIKE von der Schulenburg, because he WAS NOT Chef des Stabs Marinegruppenkommando West.
    He was a Verbindungsoffizier - a liaison officer - at HG-B. As such, he wasn't even at Marinegruppenkommando West headquarters in Paris, he was at Rommel's headquarters at La Roche-Guyon.

    So why wasn't it Vizeadmiral Friederich Rieve, Kommandierenden Admiral Kanalkueste who was the "de facto commander"? Or the actual Chef des Stades Marinegruppenkpmmando West, who was Kontradmiral Karl Hoffmann?

    The comedy continues. You said "Ruge was de facto" "KM commander in the West". How is that position "insignifiant [sic]"? So do you actually have even the smidgen of a clue of who all those "lot of KM officers" who "had a bigger and more important role" in the KM were? Doenitz. One KM officer, not "a lot of KM officers" was senior to Krancke.

    Meanwhile, your inability to reason logically continues.
     
  5. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    It was not my intention to start a discussion about Ruge here.

    He was a close friend to Erwin Rommel too, which is not a bad sign. Ruge was surely not the one who lied about the Wehrmacht in the East in the Historical Division. This was up to people like Halder.
     
  6. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    He said after the war that he was a close friend of Rommel; he was only an ambitious officer,whose career had failed : in august 1943 he was sent to the Führer Reserve= the purgatory .

    In november 1943 he was appointed admiral zu besonderen verwendung,charged with the security of the coast: something meaningless and he used his position to lick the boots of Rommel and to fire Krancke;there is a picture of him accompanying Rommel on a visit of a U Boat Bunker: why was he there ? he knew as much about U Boats as Rommel = nothing .
     
  7. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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  8. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Sigh : it's not my 3 conclusions or statements, it's these of Hitler .

    The discussion is not about the question if Hitler's motives were valide, but if there were alternatives that were better : and there were no better alternatives .

    Hitler indicated several times his motives for Barbarossa :he hoped that the fall of the SU in a short campaign would cause a pace revolution in Whitehall,
    and if not that the fall of the SU would reinforce Japan's position against the US,and if not that the conquest of the SU would reinforce his position against Britain and the US .

    Hitler was searching for a liveline, and the only that was available was Barbarossa . There was nothing else . We know that before Barbarossa Germany had already lost the war, Hitler didn't or refused to accept it .

    And already means the summer of 1940 when the GOP chosed Willkie as candidate and not Lindbergh,war with the US was ineluctable .
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I know the source and other sources you don't know .

    Security of the coast was NOT the mission of the KM and if it was the mission of the KM it was not the responsibility of Ruge but of Krancke . Ruge had nothing to do ,and he used his time by licking the boots of Rommel and stabbing knives in the back of Krancke . There was no need for him in Normandy .
     
  10. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    It took 16 minutes to contradict yourself.


    "Vielmehr lehnte er entschieden die Kriegsverbrechen der Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS in den osteuropäischen Staaten ab, von denen er 1943 durch einen Freund erfuhr."
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ruge

    Please tell us your helpful sources.
     
  11. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    You just keep doubling-down on the lunacy, don't you? It must be a compulsion.

    He said after the war that he was "close" to Rommel and one of the few advisors Rommel confided to. Please cite the work and passage where he said he was the "close friend of Rommel".

    Please also cite your source for declaring the "Führer Reserve= the purgatory". The Führer Reserve was simply a status given to officers without current employment. While in that status they could only draw retirement pay rather than active duty pay...that may have felt like purgatory. Anyway, he was placed in the Führer Reserve with effect on 13 August 1943. That was in the middle of the evacuation from Sicily, during which he decried the conduct of the Germans vis a vis their Italian allies and questioned the planned reaction to their expected capitulation.

    Meanwhile, the "purgatory" lasted all of two months...

    More nonsense. Admiral zu besonderen verwendung was a change in status from Führer Reserve. The "special purpose" originally was to act as an advisor to Rommel on his inspection tour. It had nothing to do with being "charged with the security of the coast", which is your invention. "Security of the coast" was vested in Vizeadmiral Friedrich Rieve - at least for the Channel Coast. For the Atlantic Coast it was Vizeadmiral Ernst Schirlitz...and for the South Coast it was Vizeadmiral Paul Wever. Ruge was a liaison officer from the KM command in Paris to Rommel's headquarters.

    So enlighten us on how Ruge "fired" Krancke. It certainly would be a surprise to Krancke, since he was in his position until 26 April 1945 when he took command in Norway.

    So then, an officer needs to "know" everything about a subject in order to conduct a visit? If that is the criteria then you need to stop visiting here, since its pretty obvious your basic knowledge on many subjects is lacking.
     
  12. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Ruge did know nothing about submarines.
    That's why he was responsible for the building program in the last months of the war.
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    ???

    Not sure what point you are trying to make here. He was Director of Ship Construction from August, 1944 till the end of the war. Well, after the Kriegsmaine had already become irrelevant to the outcome of the war.

    After all, it is not like he was personally designing the submarines...
     
  14. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    That was what he said after the war (they all said this ) , but when they gathered in 1950 at the Himmeroden convent, they started the myh of the clean WM, which was a lie .
     
  15. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Ruge was not a U Boat man , he never commanded a big warship, only E boats .

    He got his moment of glory in 1942 during operation Cerberos: mentioned in the WM report, the KC, promoted .

    And then, his career was over:he was transferred to NO ,later to Italy and fired .

    In november 1943 (BEFORE Rommel was appointed) he came back to France; this caused alarmbells going off chez Krancke : why did OKM send someone with a mysterious mission and why Ruge ?

    If Ruge was sent to hide him from the wrath of powerful people, he would use his mission to undermine Krancke .

    If Ruge was sent with as mission the security of the coasts, it was a blamage for Krancke, and Ruge would try to undermine Krancke .

    To whom would Ruge report ? OKM? Krancke ? Rundstedt ? later Rommel ? Or to no one, and using his time to drink and chasing women ?

    Would he transmit the "wishes " of Rommel to Krancke or the observations of Krancke to Rommel ?

    Or would he slander Krancke to get his position ?
     
  16. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Which, given the dearth of "big" warships in the KM is significant why? BTW, insofar as I know, he never commanded a E-Boote. He was a mine warfare specialist interwar and commanded a minecraft tender.

    Nope. His first "moment of glory" was WESERUBUNG when he commanded Kriegsschiffgruppe 10. That is what he was awarded his RK for, on 21 October 1940.

    Sigh, is it this thin tissue of misinformation you are basing your "analysis" on? He was promoted Kontreadmiral on 1 April 1942, retaining his position as Befehlshaber der Sicherung West until his promotion to Vizeadmiral on 1 February 1943 and his appointment as Befehlshaber des Deutschen Marinekommandos Italien in April. Where he then questioned the wisdom of trying to maintain the D-I Armeegruppe Afrika in Tunisia, recommending evacuation. Despite bucking Hitler's "wisdom" on that he was retained in his position until 13 August, supervising the initial evacuation from Sicily before being relieved for questioning the planning for the expected capitulation of Italy. Nor was being placed on the F-R being "fired", although many view it as such. He was replaced, but not demoted and there was no position available for his rank and station - the F-R was an economy in one sense.


    He was moved from the F-R and named as Admiral z.b.V. on 10 November 1943. Rommel and his personnel staff were transferred to NWE on 21 November 1943, z.b.V. as well. Ruge was appointed as the liaison officer from Marinegruppenkommando West to Rommel's Stab z.b.V. shortly after. Why does that warrant a shout out? And why would Kranke be alarmed since there was nothing "mysterious" about Rommel's or Ruge's mission?

    Ah, now we get to the heart of your crazytrain. So the Machiavellian Ruge is going to undermine Krancke. Why? While chasing poontang and drinkin' likker. And reporting to the Gnomes of Zurich. While scheming so well for Krancke's position that Krancke held it until the eve of the end of the war.

    You are raising the bar for crazy on this site. Congratulations.
     
  17. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    No, the new Type XXI and XXIII were one of the wonder weapons and much feared by Churchill. The opposite of irrelevant and you as an expert in naval warfare know this.

    As a naval admiral and more than 30 years in the german Navy, Ruge most likely had deeper knowledge of submarines than all of us here together. So why not visiting a french port and talk with Rommel how to defend it the best possible ways against attacks from the sea.

    By the way, he visited Rommel very often for hours in the hospital after his accident.

    LJaD still owes us his mysterious sources.
     
  18. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Proof that he visited Rommel very often for hours in the hospital after his accident ? And if he did, it only proves that he had nothing else to do and that he was superfluous .

    Besides, why should he visit Rommel ? A man whose career was over after 20 july .And don't tell us that he was a friend of Rommel : Rommel had no longer friends: he had fired his only friend Gauss on the order of Lucie, because the wife of Gauss had a better place at a wedding than Lucie . Women .!!

    Rommel had made career by putting knives in the back of other persons, as it happens everywhere.
     
  19. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Thank you .

    There was no need to appoint someone from outside France as a liaison officer for Rommel . If Rommel needed a liaison officer, Krancke would be willing to appoint one . Some one who would block Rommel's attempt to make the KM subordinate to him . And who arrived ? Someone who collaborated with the enemy (the army ) and joined Rommel on a visit to a place where they had no business = U Boat installations in Lorient . What would Rommel say if Krancke was visiting the Panzerlehr ?
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Ruge was no U Boat man and thus he had no knowledge of the new U Boat types who were not feared by Churchill and who had no success .
     

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