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What if Rommel got what he wanted?

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Eisenhower, Oct 21, 2003.

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  1. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    That's right - as we've agreed before, the Me-262 wasn't a war-winning weapon ; it had many design limitations which made it a great bomber-destroyer, but as a fighter the USAAF actually gave it a hard time.

    As always, it's 'ifs' : IF the Germans had the 262 in 1940, IF the '1946 Luftwaffe' had come into being....

    And if my aunt were a man she'd be my uncle.... ;)
     
  2. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Not you've confused me... :confused: The limitations made it a great bomber and it gave the Allied pilots a headache as a fighter? :confused:
     
  3. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    If your aunt was a man, there is some serious issues your family needs to work out. Haha ;) [​IMG]
    But anyway, apart from the ME-262 discussion, i would really like to talk some D-day or the original "what if".
     
  4. Onthefield

    Onthefield Member

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    If Rommel were to get the Panzers he wanted it sure would make it interesting but I don't think it would stop the momentum of the Allied forces. Although the airborne troops would have been in for a heck of a fight the beach head I believe wouldn't have been broken. Look at what happned to the Airborne divisions in MARKET-GARDEN, total devastation. [​IMG] :eek:
     
  5. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I think the poor paratroopers would have been in very serious problems. But beyond that, German tanks would have been blown appart by Typhoons and a hundred haevy naval guns at dawn. And after a few critical hours, the infantry in the beaches, despite of any losses would have broken through as it happened at Omaha.
     
  6. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    I agree. But getting through the beaches would've been a heck of a hard time. As you know, Rommel wanted a lot more defenses (mines, barbed wire, etc.) than he was given and he had no freedom to get those. So if he got what he wanted, Omaha would've been more hell-ish.
     
  7. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Omaha was the beach with more and better defences. If Rommel would have had more resources available then Utah, Gold, Juno and Sword could have been fortified in the same way - as long as terrain allowed it - and then you could have had a very bloody day and some generals losing their nerves. But again, as Omaha showed, the beach defences could only slow the attack, not stop it entirely. And as I stated, an armoured counterattack would have failed for sure. A Tiger I doesn't have much chances against 16" guns... :rolleyes:
     
  8. Vermillion

    Vermillion Member

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    If I may repost a message I posted from a thread on this topic from a while back:

    "Ah, the venerable Me262, beautiful, sleek, a technological marvel, and one of the most utterly overrated weapons of WWII.

    The Me-262 would have made no difference in the European air war by 1945, even if deployed in numbers, even if the Germans had the fuel to fly them (which it didnt), even if the Germans had the trained pilots to handle such a difficult aircraft (which they didnt).

    Each engine burned out after an average of 12 hours of flying time, meaning even maintaining these aircraft was an enormous industrial burden. Their ceiling was low, so had the Allies decided to drop the atomic bomb in Europe, they would have deployed the B-29 there, and been nearly immune to the German jet.

    The plane was beautiful, but the landing gear were a disaster,and collapsed frequently on landing. Despite its vaunted speed, a P-51 on a dive was just as fast (which is how Yaeger shot down his 262s) and the 262 itself on a powerdive tended to go transonic and disassemble in mid air. It was hard to fly, and fatalities from crashes were common, also considering there was not enough fuel by 1945 to properly train people.

    I do not mean to denegrate the achievement that this aircraft was, it was remarkable, but all to often I hear people talk about Germany winning the war if they just had a few more or deployed hem earlier, when in fact it would not have made any significant difference at all.

    Keep this in mind, General Galland himself was asked if additional 262s would have changed the outcome of the war. His answer was:

    "If the Luftwaffe had been able to field 300 Me 262 on a given day to attack the heavy bomber formations it is possible that daylight bombing would have stopped for a time. As a negative consequence, the war would most probably have been prolonged, and the Russians allowed more time to conquer further German territory. So let us now be satisfied with Hitler's mistakes towards the legendary Me 262."

    Note, the best the Germans ever managed in a single sortie was 37 Me262s, so we are talking an increase of almost 10x in this hypothetical.
    Look up the stats for combat effectiveness of the Me262 in combat, they were very disappointing The first ever unit to be equiped with them, the Kommando Nowotny was disbanded due to heavy losses, having lost 26 Me262s, (8 due to crashes and mechanical failures) and having recorded only 22 kills."
     
  9. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    You have a point, but Omaha still would have been worse because panzer divisions in the area would have slowed the airborne down causing them to miss their deadlines in taking the causeways and the guns pointed at the beaches. This is something I'm curious about, did forces from other beaches attack Omaha from behind? I seem to remember reading about that somewhere, but I forgot where and in what context. If they didn't, it probably would have been a great move on somebody's part.
     
  10. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    But Vermillion,

    if you agree to what Galland says:

    If the Luftwaffe had been able to field 300 Me 262 on a given day to attack the heavy bomber formations it is possible that daylight bombing would have stopped for a time. As a negative consequence, the war would most probably have been prolonged, and the Russians allowed more time to conquer further German territory. So let us now be satisfied with Hitler's mistakes towards the legendary Me 262."

    You also agree that the war in the west would have changed,right? And the Me-262 would have made some difference in the European air war?

    :confused:
     
  11. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Hitler gets a lot of stick for wanting the Me 262 to be turned into a bomber, but pre D-Day it actually makes a lot of sense.
    What Hitler needed above all was for the invasion of France to fail. While having a fighter which shoots down a lot of bombers is nice, it doesn't stop the Allied troops from getting to the beaches. But if the Me 262 was attacking the beaches ( Hitler knew that it would possibly be the only Luftwaffe aircraft capable of reaching the beaches in the face of Allied air power) it would at least help slow down the attack, maybe even give enough time for the Germans to get enough forces in place to defeat the invasion.
    As it was, thanks to engine problems (not fuel) by D-Day the Me 262 was not available as either a bomber or a fighter.
     
  12. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    If I may [​IMG]

    It may have made some difference to the air war, but not the land war.
     
  13. Onthefield

    Onthefield Member

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    Even if the Luftwaffe did have air power (which I don't know how that could have happened) Redcoat's right, it wouldn't make a differnece on the ground because of the amount of flak and antiaircraft fire that went up. :eek: :eek:
     
  14. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    ::sigh::
    I guess there's no stopping the inevitable...Me-262 it is... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  15. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    This topic has been discussed at least twice the last three years. A what if scenario then........

    If the Me 262 would have been in production byt 1940-41 it would of been all over fro the US and RAF heavy bomber force period !

    As was spoken but Vermillion as to what went on in 1945 is partially true but not all of it. I am quite hesitant to share much further as we have secret documents for our big boyz book on the NF 262 unit that clearly staes and shows what would of happened if the war would of lingered onward to December of 45 and what the German Luftwaffe was planning to introduce as to the way of the "new" Me 262 single and two seater models.

    As to the Me 262 being a ground strafer it was nothing but excellent as no ground guns could track it effectively. JG 7 made mince meat of Soviet armor and MT columns and it is hardly touched on in expert manfred Boehme's excellent volume on the unit. Fact is that the man has released certain documentation to us for our work and Manfred thought his text was a bit long on JG 7 so he did not include really any ops on the Ost front with the jet........
     
  16. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    True, but if it would have been introduced earlier, it would have lost all its effectiveness for the lack of fuel to fly it and most important, because its new pilots couldn't be trained to fly it. No fuel for training planes means no good pilots and no good pilots means that the most difficult plane to fly in the Luftwaffe has no one to be manned.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Sie irren sich .........

    the Me 262 was a very easy a/c to fly as I witnessed pilot Hans Busch of KG 51 perform the opening diagnostics on a Me 262 at Chino airport in Calfironia some 5 years ago.

    this thread is getting convoluted again.......as with many what if's. If the jet had been introduced earlier then there easily would have been sufficient fuels to fly, thus many pilots that were not killed or put out of action by early to mid 1944 when the Reich defence needed them most. As I said before in the spring of 45 before war's end the Luftwaffe was going to release several new designs and a re-released Me 262 with improved engines not neccessating the odd ball fuel mixtures needed for the "old" Me 262A-1a. Airfield defence was to be tightened up at all jet flügplatz with increased 2cm multi barrel( 2,3 and 4 plus) weapons and a new quick firing 3cm piece. You guys know about the hand held Fliegerfaust ?

    Now I am saying too much.......

    let your mind continue to wonder about the what if possiblities in 45......

    ~E
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Erich,

    the Me-262 and ostfront action does sound very interesting to read about in the future!!
     
  19. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Then I'm all messed up now! :confused:

    If Germany DID have pilots available, fuel and an aircraft so easy to fly... why did it perform so poorly? :confused:
     
  20. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I think I may have stuck a log in the gears guys. What I was mentioning was a What-if on the Me 262. IF it had been available in the early 1940's and not in very late 1944 the jet would of made a difference. A/C production overall was not hampered until late 44 but the fuel shortages were felt and may leading Luftwaffe aircrew's had been put out of action by spring of 1944. so what was the substitute in reality. work with what you have ! Ill-trained youngsters, ready for a fight but knew nothing of what was to come their way flying outdated equipment until as I mentioned as we all, the Me 262 and Ar 234.
     
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