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Winston Churchill and the years of appeasement

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by harolds, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Moreover the French had already proven with their shenanigans over promoting an independent Rhineland state just how far they were prepared/not prepared to go and armed conflict fell into the latter category.
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler did not have Money in his Bank even how he moaned "I want war." So he had to rob banks. He had no options. " Do or die". At times he only had foreign currency for two months.
    Interesting that meetings with General s did not help. They were mostly against. Hitler said his generals should be blood thirsty dogs on a least not little furry dogs wasting to ne scratched.
    So Rhineland: Hitler was ready to retreat in case. Anschluss: if I recall correctly Hitler threatened with military. Sudeten Germany was a deal where Hitler said he had had all he wanted. Zechoslovakia: invasion By Germans own decision. And all the time Schacht kepit the Reich Bank Shandong. Crumbling but standing. Hitler wanted war not take care of economy. After Sudetenland negototiations Hitler said of Chamberlain " I will never let him stop me from having my war."
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Yes. There was to be a referendum but Hitler threatened with invasion and the German army marched into Austria.
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Also losing the Sudeten areas meant losing the hundreds of bunkers protecting the main country. After this the Germans could walk in like they did.
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Only parts of the border (over 2000 kilometers long if I remember correctly) were protected by bunkers, and many of the absolutely crucial artillery bunkers weren't' even ready in time.

    The existing fortifications are shown in red below, planned in orange. As can be seen, Czechoslovakia was defenseless. And that lots of them were going to be built outside the Sudetenland.

    Screenshot from 2020-08-14 11-39-21.jpg
     
  6. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    As we know, the Allied countries were in trouble securing their own countries. Thus Many countries Hitler invaded By simply military threats. Poland started war and expected the help promised. Did it ever occurred? Also Finland got alot of sympathy but never true military help.
     
  7. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Poland did not start the war with Germany. Britain made it clear to Poland that they would declare war on Germany should Poland be invaded but the logistics were such that it would be impossible to provide direct military support in a timely fashion. In the case of Finland Britain was on the edge of declaring war on the Soviet Union and sending an expedition when Finland capitulated. Such things cannot be done instantly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I said it wrong. The Germans made it look like the Poles had attacked a German radio station. However the Allied had promised to attack Germany in the back door in that case which was a minor invasion and retreat. Finland fought since late late November to early March so not sending any powerful forces sounds political move to me. We know Winston knew early on only the Soviets could win the Germans. Three months-not Any decent troops sent to help the Finns.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Adolf Hitler to his generals, ten days before attacking Poland:

    I thought that I would first turn against the West in a few years, and only after that against the East. But the sequence of these things cannot be fixed. Nor should one close one's eyes to threatening situations.

    I wanted first of all to establish a tolerable relationship with Poland in order to fight first against the West. But this plan, which appealed to me, could not be executed, as fundamental points had changed. It became clear to me that, in the event of a conflict with the West, Poland would attack us.
     
  10. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Whatever Winston knew he was not Prime Minister until May 1940 and couldn't send troops anywhere. Where is any evidence that Britain promised to attack Germany "in the back door". Wake up and smell the coffee
     
  11. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland, August 25, 1939.
    THE Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Polish Government:
    Desiring to place on a permanent basis the collaboration between their respective countries resulting from the assurances of mutual assistance of a defensive character which they have already exchanged:
    ...
    ARTICLE I.
    Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power.


    Secret Protocol attached to the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland signed on the 25th August 1939
    The Government of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and the Polish Government are agreed upon the following interpretation of the Agreement of Mutual Assistance signed this day as alone authentic and binding.
    1. (a) By the expression "a European Power" employed in the Agreement is to be understood Germany.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Did not the French attack Germany after Germany attacked Poland, but the French attack was minor and the troops withdrew very soon back.
     
  13. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The French-Polish military convention (Kasprzycki-Gamelin Convention) signed on 19 May 1939.
    In the event of a German aggression against Poland or a threat to Polish vital interests in Gdansk, which could lead to a Polish military reaction, the French Armed Forces will automatically take the following actions:
    1. The French would immediately undertake air action.
    2. As soon as part of the French forces became available (about the third day after I+ [i.e. France's general mobilization], France would launch a series of progressive offensives with limited objectives.
    3. As soon as the main German attacks come to bear on Poland, France would launch an offensive against Germany with the bulk of her forces (not earlier than on the fifteenth day I+.

    Correspondingly, should the main German forces attack France, especially crossing Belgium and/or Switzerland, which will entail a French military reaction, the Polish Army will make every effort to engage possibly the largest share of the German Forces, along the general lines agreed between the Military Commands.
     
  14. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Indeed which is what they did - on the Western Front - and in a very limited form. Where is your 'back door.?
     
  15. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    No, they didn't do this:
    1. The French would immediately undertake air action.
    and this:
    2. As soon as part of the French forces became available (about the third day after I+ [i.e. France's general mobilization], France would launch a series of progressive offensives with limited objectives.
    and this:
    3. As soon as the main German attacks come to bear on Poland, France would launch an offensive against Germany with the bulk of her forces (not earlier than on the fifteenth day I+.

    They threw the Poles under the bus to gain time for themselves, this is why they promised things that were not going to happen.
     
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  16. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The back door that never took place..so Many countries like Poland waiting for the helping hand..
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The Soviet back door. The divisions entered Finland during winter and our ski troops cut their movement and destroyed piece By Piece these units. No help from the allied while the USSR was Germany's axis partner. The boats for Finnish help simply waited in harbours for the word go. When Germans attacked Norway these troops were sent for help.
     
  18. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Politicians make promises that are frequently divorced from military realities. Often they know this but make these promises in the expectation/hope they will not need to comply, that the threat/promise is enough to dissuade a potential adversary from pursuing a unwanted outcome. You don't always rattle your saber in the firm belief everything will go your way, but often in the hope you will not need to draw your saber.

    Then again once the fecal matter hits the circulating unit, where it lands is a matter of random chance.
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Politicians make promises but that wasn't an election. It was an alliance - one of the so-help-us-God thing.

    It wasn't like only the Allies were required to give all the support and assistance in their power.
    Poland was required too. In the case of war in West Poland had to attack Germany - most likely at the cost of hundreds of thousands of casualties and its own destruction.

    If betrayal was ok then to the other one, Hitler was better.
    Because he never abandoned his ally in need.
     
  20. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    The thing is we can't know for sure if the Poles would have executed a full offensive in return, I am not calling out their bravery, just the possibility that their attack would be no more than the French was. We must also consider when the pact was originally signed, 1921. Germany was a potential enemy, in 1939 Germany was a very real enemy and the balance of power had shifted in a generation.
     

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