300 spartans?

In Greek, the word "aspis"(ασπίς) indicates all types of shields. Different types of shields had different names. For example;
The heavy type of shield the hoplites usedwas called hoplon.
On the other hand,the lighter type used by javelin(more commonly) skirmishers was called "pelte"(πέλτη) and thus, these skirmishers were called peltasts.

 

I've read it differently but then I don't know any Greek...

 

intresting jeag ...are you saying that the spartans were holding the hot springs merely to denie water to xerxes galley slaves ?could the persians have bypassed this place and sought water somewhere futher along the coast? or was it a matter of face ,ie xerxes not letting a few tousand greeks bar his way?

 

the whole point of the invasion was to take revenge for marathon , a small expedition send to punish the athenians ( and plateans ) for the sack of sardis
back in darius time ,

mardonius son of gobryas brother in law and classmate of xerxes, was the big mover behind it.
he seemed to have convinced xerxes that nothing like a short sharp glorious war would set him as a ruler worthy of respect ,
Xerxes was going to wash the affont to his dad and to the might of persia
the usual gaggle of exiled greeks were saying it would be easy ,

the problem was the expedition was huge ,
the numbers are all over the place , and the greeks a proven bunch of liars ...
however they knew what one hundred thousands looks like and they reported the persians as way more ,
it was all about logistics , an army this size could not feed itself on the country , unless moving ,the persian general staff had the fleet bringing supplies and protecting the transports , that's why the army was hugging the coast , to keep contact with its supplies and events back home
the galley were manpowered , not nescessarily by slaves
it is very thirsty work , like the steam engine regular water stops hade to be made .
a fleet caught with no water would see its rowers collapse of exaustion under the incredible strain of battle . it was not even to be risked , the persians could fight their way through anything but had a reasonnable fear of being trapped on the wrong side of the bosphorus .
so far the persian army had cleared the coast for the fleet ,
the navy could have made a dash for athenes harbor and tangled with the greeks ships but they would have been exausted before the battle ,spending a night at least offshore
if the greeks had refused to joint in , the persian fleet would have had to turn back and risk the weather and the greeks ships snapping at them , chewing their arses . better to make it a combined move .
taking the springs would have allowed the fleet to leap frog up a new way point ,within striking distance of athenes ,

the exiled greeks must have explained all this to the admirals , so too the greek democracies and tyrannies of asia minor east coast , good subjects of persia , dorians from halicarnase were means sailors too

xerxes must have been deeply pissed off by the stand of leonidas ,
this was spoiling tactics of the worst kind , a huge army is in fact quite fragile and keeping the whole thing moving a major management feat .

leonidas knew what he was doing...... not glory..... no

he was kicking xerxes in the balls .

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im puzzeled by the water issue ,jeag . a man working hard all day in hot weather only needs mabey 2 or three gallons of water ,ships as a rule can carrie many tons of weight ..water bourne cargo is much more efficient than say , ox carts or camels ...one would think a war galley could carrie a few weeks worth of drinking water for its human propulsion unit....say 15lbs per man per day ,times how many oarsmen per galley?

 

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it's not really a field were I am an expert but at 200 men on board including the marines , assuming a consumtion of 8 liters a day , thats 1.5 ton on board
two days would be 3 tons ,
those were not cargo ships but light greyhounds build for speed ,,with very little space on board , totally dependent on the fitness of the crew for
their weapon , the ram ,
a weakened crew mean an useless ship with no punch
re watering a few hundreds ships must have taken some days , during wich the on board water would be drunk , if the springs were small it would not end , the army also had its requirements , plentiful springs were thus a nescessity
the control of water must have been important
the greek fleet was fighting off the coast holding the persian ships but when leonidas fell ,the greek ships left a pretty good and so far succesful defensive position in the narrows between the island of euboa and the mainland ,
they must have felt holding there was now impossible
the persians were experienced fighters , they had conquered the greatest empire ever seen , from india to egypt , they were warlike and well knew not to rush a position blindly , taking the passes must have been important
I believe possession of the water was the tactical reason

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water as a strategic material....like the oilfields of sumatra or romania...i see your point ,and a even to carrie a 3 day supplie would prolly render a war galley inoperable ...ive never heard water put foward as the vital issue at thermopoly....ricky ,roel ,pan,mcris ...and those seapower guys cam ,notmi ?? is this correct ,it would seem to make perfect sense....

 

It is a reasonable rationale. However we are talking about something slightly beyond a rearguard action to delay the enemy. The Spartans and some of their allies fought to the death while the enemy had already surrounded them - at which point, of course, their stand was futile, since the enemy had apparently found a way around them. Surrender would have been the logical option.

 

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I've chewed on that one , leonidas could have got the hero bug but he probably had a perfectly good military reasons , such as stopping the persians from pursuing the retreating greeks , a retreat can change into a rout easily enought , a day margin could be the difference between an army repositioning and a rabble in flight ??

I'm certain that leonidas was a rationnal war commander , bend on creating the maximum havoc for the longest possible time , paying for time and space with blood , his !

P.s. i'm getting heavily into acient naval battle tactics , will give the juice to the brothers later
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surrender in those days would just result in slow death as a slave in a salt mine or something like it ...i dont think spartans were to big on surrender anyway ...like the japanese in ww 2 ..not a viable option ,was it?

 

Spartans would never surrender in such a case. Fighting and particularly dying to protect and preserve the freedom of ones homeland,against foreign threats, was, maybe, the greatest honour for a Greek warrior. Trough such an act they would achieve immortality, and as it seems, the 300 Spartans along with the 700 Thespians achieved it.

 

They took actors to battle???

Sorry, I just couldn't hold that in any longer. Carry on with the more intelligent posts...

 

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Tom , for shame ....

unfortunately , the lesbians were under xerxes

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Nice one Tom

Moderators going off topic.... :roll:

 

Persian costumes in that movie were GREAT... Very historically inaccurate however... The common Persian slaves were pretty good, but the Immortals looked a bit like Japanese ninjas and Xerxes was bald...

I still do not understand what precluded the Persians from using skirmish tactics (speaking historically here, not movie)... AFAIK standing off and firing arrows, then retreating when the enemy got close, was a common middle Eastern tactic in the ancient and middle ages... God knows that they had the manpower to simply stand off and tire out the Spartans, even if they did not pursue they could not hold their shields up forever...

 

The pass of Thermopylae was too small and restricted for the Persians to use their cavalry or archers to good effect. It was shield wall melee at close quarters.

 

lol tom ...300 spartans plus a bunch a fops in tights who ACT out the part of being soldiers (ow.. this armor is hot and its chaffing me...) i think jeag is right , once the spartans were wiped out , xerxes butch lesbian storm dyke corps ( the immorals ? ) would prolly make short work of the thespians...

 

Dr. Kaveh Farrohk has quite a few remarks about the historical context described in "300". Read them here.

 

Funny statement, since the battle of Thermopylae was the last time the Spartans ever fought to the death. As far as I know it was also the first time. The only other comparable stand was that of the Sacred Band at Chaeronea.

Spartans spread a great myth about themselves across the Greek world; that they were unmatched in single combat, unfailing in battle, calm and determined under stress, and that they would never retreat or surrender. In reality, though, they retreated or were defeated just as often as all the other city-states of Greece. It's their reputation that won them many battles, but when actually put to the test they rarely showed much excellence beyond that of their opponents.

A telling example of this is the Battle of the Champions, in which the 300 best Spartans took on the 300 best Thebans. Considering the reputation of the Spartans, one would believe that this would be an easy victory for them. In reality, though, the battle ended at a stalemate when two Thebans and only one Spartan were left alive.

I'm not sure what the Persians would do to Greeks they captured, since Thermopylae was the only open battle the Greeks ever lost against the Persians, and obviously it left them no prisoners. Against other Greeks, however, "surrender" usually meant little more than a withdrawal from the battlefield, granting the enemy the honour of setting up a trophy, a symbol of their victory.

 

Interesting article! Thanks!