Admiral Scheer and convoy HX-84

Why are you calling a rather conventional heavy cruiser a pocket battleship? Indeed I don't think the Germans ever called even their 11" gunned cruisers "pocket battleships" and I believe classed them as heavy cruisers by the end of the war.

 

lwd please note the date of the very first posting ............ 4 years ago and Fried has not been very regular in posting due to other committments in his life the last year. I'd like to see him update his dat, and his data actually stems from German sources.

to be very truthful the Scheer was not a heavy cruiser but in term classed as a "capital ship" with the Bismarck and Tirpitz

 

The Hipper was clearly a heavy cruiser by any reasable definition.

As for Sheer she had cruiser class features except for her main battery which while only 6 guns was 11" caliber. The best fit within the standard defintions of the time is thus heavy cruiser and according to:
Admiral Scheer History

This data has been around for quite a bit of time though I must admit the likelyhood of a reply does go down if the original post is that old.

 

lwd note the page you made reference to when it say pocket battleship. Also note where the page leaves off, nothing of it's history during 44-till wars end

personally I think it was between the heaviest Capital ships and the heavy cruisers, my opinion just like the web-page. there is a fantastic reference which I do not own for my KM library but it is from Germany and covers the ops and origins of the Admiral Scheer at quite a length. will have to try and find the book on the net now

I note that she went to Kiel in March of 45 for a rfit but never returned to action, "smoked" by the RAF on 9/10th of April 45, also in a 44-45 pic she has at least a new single 3.7cm with shield above on her front turret.........

 

Well given that she had cruiser class armor and weight. She sure looks like a cruiser. Indeed one one one she would have a tough time with a late war US CA or even a Brooklyn or Clevland class CL and would have been completely outclassed by one of the large US cruisers. Rating her as a heavy cruiser is very logical in my view.

That of course still doesn't answer why the Hipper was rated as anything other than a heavy cruiser.

 

I've never understood the term "Pocket Battleship". Indeed it was a heavy cruiser with 11 inch guns.
The "moniker" Commerce Raider is my favorite. Meant to have speed to match destroyers & cruisers, and fire power (range) to get in first licks.
Almost ideal usage for a ship hampered by treaty regulations, and very successful in its destructive efforts (all 3), and in their diverting of Capitol ships needed elsewhere.

 

Pocket Battleship possibly from the WW 1 days.

as to cruiser-what by todays standards ? I am still finding that the unit for whatever reason in the German KM way of thinking was still presented as a capital ship except for the link lwd posted. what could of been never was; as the unit sat quite a bit in dock during 44 before it was given the chance for off shore bombardments on Soviet positions something that seemed to work quite well for the KM cruisers and destroyer arm in late 44-45.

 

My thoughts were simply by total displacement and armor protection of a (basic/standard) CA of WW 2. 10,000 tons which was the treaty limitations and I believe the Lutzow went to 11,700, and the Graf Spee even higher. They even had torpedo tubes which are seldom (if ever) found on BB's.
In comparison the IJN CA Haguro (supposed to be 10,000 tons) weighed in at over 13, 000.
I don't have the numbers in front of me right now but I believe the range of the 11 inchers was almost phenomenal. Giving these ships (in the early days) a desired advantage in engagements with CA's or less, and the ability to outrun BB's.
Almost no ship could close with them unless they wanted to, and their guns could hit with no danger of return fire.
Alas with the involvement of carriers, land based bombers, and a busier Atlantic put these boats in dock or behind Denmark.
Against a convoy and its typical escorts (early on), these ships were much feared. In later days (those of no restrictions/total involvement/newer ideas) they tended to fade away into uselessness. Their anti-aircraft was the first war, and not at all up to snuff for WW 2, even with later upgrades.

 

some good ideas and let me add here, the Babara refit program was to pull single 2cm off and replace with twins that were quicker firing, the twin single round fed 3.7cm were replaced by single and then twin rapid fire 37mm's and in some cases the bofors 4cm cannons. The 88's and 150's were going to be useless in covered turrets not being able to track quick flying mid to low altitude enemy a/c......... the Soviets in case of dive bombing these Flak bastions in the Baltic felt the sting more than once, what the KM hardly would of expected was a German contact docking ports getting blown apart by RAF heavies from high altitude where none of the pop guns could even reach.

< E >

 

JERVIS BAY (November 5, 1940)

Originally built to carry emigrants to Australia, the Aberdeen and Commonwealth Line 14,164 ton liner was taken over by the Admiralty in 1939 and converted to an Armed Merchant Cruiser (MAC Ship) with a crew of 254 men. On the 5th of November the Jervis Bay was the sole escort for convoy HX-84 from Halifax to Britain and consisting of 37 freighters. When the convoy was attacked by the German battleship Admiral Scheer, the Jervis Bay engaged the Scheer in a desperate attempt to enable the convoy to escape.

In a twenty two minute battle the Bay's commander, Captain Fogarty Fegan, and most of his officers were killed. In all, 187 officers and crew were lost when the blazing ship sank 755 nautical miles (1,398 kilometres) south-southwest of Reykjavic, Iceland. Fifty six survivors were rescued by the Swedish freighter Stureholm (Capt. Sven Olander) but three died before reaching the port of Halifax. Captain Fogarty Fegan was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross. On December 11, 1940, the Stureholm was sunk with all hands by the U-96. The Admiral Scheer went on to sink six other ships in the convoy which took the lives of another 251 men. On April 9, 1945, she was bombed and sunk by the RAF while at her anchorage in Kiel.

 

Convoy HX 84 - warsailors.com

 

People reach too far these days to find heros. Someone who rescues a cat from a tree is a hero in todays news, and they sometimes only do it for the camera, public accolade, and monetary gain. We sometimes cloud and cheapen the word by over use.

Seriously...All Hail, All Hands, Genuine Heros !
Jervis Bay (especially)
San Demetrio

no applause
no Sainthood/Martyrdom/Glory
no money
no guarentees for the afterlife
no film at 11

Duty, Honor, Self Sacrifice.......
They knew what had to be done and had no illusions about the cost, they just did it !

 

Worth is a tough call, and I'm sure Adolf expected miracles.

Deutschland/Lutzow in Aug. 39 sank 2 and captured 1 merchantman. Probably 15,000 grt.
In April of 40 she took 3-11 inch shell hits from Oslofjord, and a torpedo from RNS Spearfish on the way home, and in July was struck with an airborne torpedo.
She ran aground with 3 destroyers near Bear island in Nov. 42
Sunk near Swinemunde by 12,000 lb bomb near misses and settled to the bottom.

Graf Spee sank 9 for 50,089 grt.
BS'd into being "scuttled" (some big boys were waiting for you) after severe enough damage from HMS's (Ajax/Achilies/Exeter) in Montevideo.

Admiral Scheer got 16 merchantmen + Jervis bay for 113,233 grt.
Rolled over after 5 bomb hits at Kiel.

Math says, (grt math) they were worth it. 36,000 vs approx 180,000 grt.

 

That's 36Kt of warship vs 180Kgrt. Compare to what they might have got out of merchant raiders, subs, or dedicated anti shipping aircraft.