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American sniper rifle vs German sniper rifle

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by P5, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Is it? If so it's certainly far from clear to me.
    Did they? The recent posts indicate that they had a more formal training program not that their equipment was any better.
    I don't see a basis for advocating one rifle over the other based on that. Indeed it's not even clear that German snipers were more efficient in similar situations than US snipers. For instance if there was a higher level of accuracy and field craft with US personel in general then this might enhance the efficieny of the snipers. I'm not even sure that we have an acceptable common defintion of sniper by the way. Also look at some of the innovateive practices of US snipers (some unofficial) in other wars. For instance in the ACW they occasionally used rifled artillery. In Vietnam at least one US sniper used an M2 12.7mm mg in single shot mode for some very long range sniping. If you move beyond the hardware it's going to take enough research to fill a book to come to a good conclusion if it's even possible then.
     
  2. Heidi

    Heidi Dishonorably Discharged

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    no,no you're right. i always thought in my views that americans were into hard -core war and not into sit and wait war.
    you're more of a professinal than i am,i have nothing on yuo at all.
    i believe you.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That's really hard to charterize. Tremendous differences between parts of the country and especially between cities and small town/ rurual areas. For instance my uncles, lived in a small town, used to take their shotguns to school with them so that they could hunt on the way home. That was not considered unusual or controversial back then. In New York, for instance, it probably would have been. Especially back then there were a lot of hunting arms in particular in the rural areas and small town and depression era hunting very much encouraged getting the most meat for the least expenditure of ammo. On the otherhand the tremendous expansion of the US army during WWII didn't necessarily mean that people ended up in the positions that they were best suited for. I'm pretty sure that the Marines never lost their tradition of being good shots but it's not clear to me howmuch effort the army put into marksmanship training or sniper selection and training. You could in the long run be correct as I've said we just don't have enough data yet to reach firm conclusions at least IMO.
     
  4. Heidi

    Heidi Dishonorably Discharged

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    wow, you're like an walking dicionary,it's a shame i can't take you onto other boards with me,you would make me so smart.:)
    i understand you now about rifell guns.
     
  5. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    There are several on this board that know more than I do and several more that I consider my peers. One of the benefits to being on these boards. :) Also one of the reasons I've learned to be careful about stating things for certain. DA for instance and I have had some rather extended debates even though we usually agree on things.
     
  6. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

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    While I'm awaiting delivery of Gilbert's book "Sniper", I decided to see what I could find with an online search of "German sniper". First hit was a German sniper training film which is interesting and I thought I'd share the link: World War II - German Sniper Training Film
     
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  7. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Here is a picture I found on the USMC Scout Sniper Associations web site.
    Judging by the caption the "Scout Sniper Platoon" was part of the Regimental Headquarters & Service Co.

    Due to the tempo of advance in the Pacific Theatre Marine snipers were rarely afforded the oppurtunity to be used where they are the most effective; in the defense. A common mission for the Marine Snipers in WW2 was to protect an exposed flank from a position of advantage or report on enemy movements and either report the intelligence or call in artillery.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. razin

    razin Member

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    DocCasualty

    Really nice film link but the first part in particular I would expect taught in junior field craft- so some aspects of camoflague technique were absent in particlar vertical vs horizontal lines and shading,

    Anyway nice hour spent thanks

    ~Steve
     
  9. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Heidi,

    Though American Army lacked a consistent doctrine, training and organization for snipers, riflecraft itself was a skill sacrosanct in the Army vital to its institutional self-image. On Infantry identified marksmanship as one of the few things the US Army got right at the first time. Generally, even the historians who are highly critical of the efficacy of US infantry training identified riflecraft as a strong point in the curriculum. It is probably a safe bet that the average American recruit was a better shot than the average Wehrmacht recruit.

    According to Baynoet Strength's battalion TO&Es there was a Sprinfield rifle with a scoped issued at every rifle platoon. This is an unattatched weapon--i.e. there is no soldier designated to carry the rifle but used at the platoon commander's discretion. Whether there would be a trained sniper or voluneer crack shot to use the weapon is another question all together. According to Max Hasting, one of the consistent themes he derived from his interivew of allied soliders is how unwilling of the man to use scoped sniper rifles--such men is rarely taken alive by the enemy, and without the proper training the man with the scoped rifle is every enemy's target on the battlefield. American snipers might be more properly defined as intermediary between platoon marksman and true sniper--though the latter definately existed as they always have in every army.
     
  10. Heidi

    Heidi Dishonorably Discharged

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    i see what yuo are saying abuot america being tops like german and russia snnipers!:cool::)
     
  11. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

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    I realize this is a little bass-ackwards, but I finally decided to search this site for prior threads and topics related to snipers. I'm sorry I don't recall which rogue had posted this link previously, but take a look at the numbers some of these men and women posted! Based on nothing but this list (and I have no idea of its validity), I guess the Soviets take the prize. Sorry if this strayed too far from the OT, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

    WW2 Snipers (credit for this link goes to Za Rodinu. Where is Za?)


    Talk about killing me softly . . .

    [​IMG]

    Roza Shanina - 100+ Club [​IMG]
     
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  12. W Marlowe

    W Marlowe WWII Veteran

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    Snipers:

    By 1943 sniper training in the US Army had been formalized. In my parachute infantry regiment you had two man sniper team for each rile platoon. Marksmanship had been a hallmark of the US army from the beginning. The peacetime Army paid extra for expert marksman at rhe rate $5.00 per month.The Camp Perry rifle matches were held each year. The services had teams competing for the Presidents Cup.

    As Ever,

    Walter L. Marlowe

    (Airborne all the Way)
     
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  13. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

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    Walter,

    Could you comment on how effective you felt the US sniper teams were from your experience? Did they operate pretty independently or were they used more as sharpshooters of the platoon?

    I'm currently reading "Sniper" that I referenced above and have just completed the WWII section of the book. It seems that the British, Soviets, Germans, Japanese and Americans started out with different doctrines and even emphasis on importance of sniping. The author, Gilbert, certainly paints a picture of the US military higher-ups not convinced early on of the necessity or utility of snipers. There certainly were plenty of field officers who were convinced and went a long way in creating formalized training programs. As you noted, America had lots of shooters/hunters from the civilian ranks and a long-standing traditon of marksmanship in the Army, even moreso in the Marines. However, they still needed the training in all of the other aspects of the sniper's craft to function in that role.

    Some of the Soviet kill numbers seen on WW2 Snipers are staggering. However, Gilbert does a good job of explaining how snipers of various nationalities were utilized in various phases of the war and it makes a lot of sense that the Soviets on the defensive found plenty of opportunities to use their well-trained snipers. I thought it was interesting that the Soviets probably came into the war with one of most solid sniping doctrines, apparently developed in the '30s and one of the few armies that considered it important in the inter-war period.

    Can't forget to mention the Finns, another strong tradition of hunting rifleman whose snipers were used to great effect against the Soviets.
     
  14. Hufflepuff

    Hufflepuff Semi-Frightening Mountain Goat

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    It's interesting to note that in close country (like Normandy) the Allied snipers would often carry unscoped weapons, even preferring the M1 or M1 Carbine to the bolt-action Springfield. Makes sense, especially since it saves the weight of carrying another weapon. Better to have a fast-firing, accurate rifle than an accurate bolt-action with a heavy tommy gun over your shoulder.
     
  15. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Actually, I have heard similiar comments from many modern American snipers who felt that their bolt-action rifles were not sufficiently verstatile in close in fighting when they are in cities. Bolt-action rifle is fine when the sniping resembles a hunt, but when they start shooting back, they wished they had more firepower. This is why the US Army had adopted the M110 semi-automatic sniper rifle, though I have heard that it is suffering from some severe teething woes.
     
  16. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    what about a m1903a3 with a m3a1 grease gun
     
  17. razin

    razin Member

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    Triple C

    Possibly the return of the heavy barrelled M21 might be an idea.

    Steve
     
  18. Hufflepuff

    Hufflepuff Semi-Frightening Mountain Goat

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    Isnt the M21 still in use by the Navy Seals?
     
  19. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    if your talking about the semi auto 50.cal rifle yes it is still in service
     
  20. W Marlowe

    W Marlowe WWII Veteran

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    Gentelmen:

    During WW II I sometimes used and M 1 Rifle with a Weaver 4X Scope Sight. I found it accurate to about 800 meters. Most of my shots were taken at 200 to 300 meters.

    When going into a firefight I would use the Thompson SMG. It gave you enought firepower to influence the outcome of the firefight. I suppose for the same reason the German Officers used the MP 42. You more used to the weapons you trained with.

    As Ever,

    Walter L. Marlowe

    ( Airborne all the Way)
     

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