Attitudes toward the Japanese?

In a letter dated 7/24/1942 Assistant Secreatary of War Mccloy talking about feeding internees hand wrote at the end of the letter...

'These people are not internees they are under no suspicion for the most part and were moved largely because we felt we could not control our own white citizens in California".

Greg Robinson,noted author sent me a copy of this letter he uncovered in 2005..

Robinson's "newly discovered" memo that he "uncovered" would not seem to be of much importance at all when viewed in the context of other comments by Mr. McCloy concerning the reasons for the Japanese evacuation.

Historians Conn, Engelman, and Fairchild, for instance, note in "Guarding the United States and Its Outposts--Chapter V," that only several months after the "uncovered" memo in question, McCloy wrote another memo which indicated that the attitude of the local population was least in importance and behind military considerations in the evacuation decision.

That memo, on 16 November 1942, addressed to the Commanding General, Eastern Defense Command, Hugh Drum, said: "As you know, the Japanese were removed from the West Coast, first because of the proximity of the West Coast to the Japanese theater of operations and, second, because of the very large number of Japanese concentrated in that area, and thirdly, because of the fear that direct action might be taken against the Japanese as a result of the rather antagonistic attitude of the local population."

Furthermore, SecWar Stimson who was at least as much an architect of the evacuation decision as Mr. McCloy, later wrote in his memoir written in 1947 "...the War Department ordered the evacuation of more than 100,000 persons of Japanese origin from strategic areas on the west coast (because)Japanese raids...seemed not only possible but probable...and it was quite impossible to be sure that the raiders would not receive important help from individuals of Japanese origin."

Years later (1984)in Congressional testimony Mr. McCloy said: "It was a fact that (the Pearl Harbor) attack was supplemented by information giving (top officials) clear knowledge of the existence of subversive Japanese agencies designed to operate in this country...The information...was available through "MAGIC," a system by which we were able to read intercepted Japanese coded messages before and during a large part of the war...the knowledge obtained by "MAGIC," more than supplied all the information needed to justify fully President Roosevelt's action."

Finally, I'm curious as to the source of Mr. Robinson's contention that the evacuees were not to be considered "internees" for legal reasons in order to avoid Geneva Convention feeding requirements. That seems far fetched to me. The War Relocation Authority definition of the difference between "evacuees" and "internees" is clear and makes more sense: "A sharp distinction should be drawn at all times between residents of relocation centers--even the aliens--and prisoners of war or civilian internees. The aliens residing at relocation centers have been found guilty of no crime...They have simply been evacuated as a group, in the interest of military security, from specific military areas....CIVILIAN INTERNEES ARE ALIENS OF ENEMY NATIONALITY-- JAPANESE, GERMAN, OR ITALIAN--WHO HAVE BEEN APPREHENDED BY THE FBI AND FOUND GUILTY BY ENEMY ALIEN CONTROL BOARDS OF ACTS OR INTENTIONS AGAINST THE NATIONAL SECURITY..." (Emphasis added). They are confined in internment camps...and not quartered at relocation centers.

 

We occupied Japan after the war wouldn't there be written evidence of the huge spy network that MAGIC said existed? Seems to me if there was evidence the US would want it to prosecute would be traitors.

Between August 15 and September 3 the Japanese destroyed their intelligence.

 

Bob,

I've read MAGIC and frankly don't think it neccessarily proves anything but that the Japanese tried to establish a large network and were having a devil of a time doing it . The decrypts also seem to indicate trouble recruiting qualified people and the need to recruit non Japanese in oder to be successful . Everything that was reported was in or near a city that had a Japanese Consulte heck according to John Prados "Combined Fleet Decoded" even the US embassy in Tokyo was able to get quite a bit of info on the IJN despite all of the far more tighened Japanese security & far less freedom in that country prewar that is but once war breaks out it's totally different especially since the Central & South American countries weren't being very co-operative with the Japanese ,the Mexican government in fact breaking diplomatic relations with Japan the day after Pearl Harbor.. Most of the info gleamed pre-war by said Japanese Consulates could have been gotten just by going fishing down at the local harbor looking for ships ,reading the newspaper or listening to radio broadcasts.I've run this by other forums and quite a few other people agree the MAGIC decrypts don't neccessarily prove what some like you think. I also have read quite a few of the documents over on the Athena press website you linked to earlier and they can be attacked too IMHO though I'm sure you'll disagree. But just MHO from what I read and my opinion is hardly one carved in stone just as yours is also. You can cite a few historians supporting your view just as I can submit ones supporting mine we'll just have to disagree.
If I'm not wrong I think there were something like 128,000 Magic messages covering 160,000+ pages more then any of us will be able to read in a lifetime. So in fact none of us probably will ever know the whole truth. The archive you linked to is hardly such it has something like 400 documents ,I wonder just how many documents there were in all relevant to MAGIC & Internment? Certainly far more then either of us could ever read in a lifetime. So about all one can say is they've read this & that to support this view.
Oh I also called the 9th Circuit and the Librarian was somewht familiar with the Coram Nobis cases and that all documents were properly certified by both parties plus there were also 26 boxes of documents involved so hardly a case where attacking one document supports your view.

One last view I think alot of people are making the mistake of applying how our society today thinks in the context of different races to the racial views present in 1940's. That was the era of seperate but equal which translated meant seperate but unequal.The Blacks were more or less ignored while say the Japanese & Indians just were percieved as being slightly less then American certainly not as American as Whites of European Descent. How many Blacks or Japanese or Indians got to have input on say their own criminal cases & such? How many public officals back then were non-white? What was the role of women and their rights compared to men back then?

Anyways I think you & me will just have to agree to disagree. This also means probably having to disagree with a few others on this forum bhut what the heck.

 

I've read MAGIC and frankly don't think it neccessarily proves anything but that the Japanese tried to establish a large network and were having a devil of a time doing it .

Sounds to me like they were past the "tried" and "devil of a time" stage.

MAGIC Intercept

May 19,1941, from Los Angeles (Nakauchi) to Tokyo:

"We have already established contact with absolutely reliable Japanese in San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep close watch on all shipments of airplanes and other war material.

We shall maintain connection with our second generations who are at present in U.S. Army to keep us informed of various developments in the army.

We also have connections with our second generations working in aircraft plants for intelligence purposes."

The decrypts also seem to indicate trouble recruiting qualified people and the need to recruit non Japanese in oder to be successful .

Sure, the Japanese were looking for communists, "negro" organizations, anti-semites and others. MAGIC doesn't indicate any success in doing so. MAGIC does reveal success in fifth column activity amongst the ethnic Japanese population as the above intercept proves.

...the Mexican government in fact breaking diplomatic relations with Japan the day after Pearl Harbor..

Which surprised the Japanese. Mexico wasn't nearly as cooperative at the outbreak of WW1 and the Japanese had expected the same. They had an intelligence network setup from within Mexico which is why the lower third of Arizona was also designated a military combat zone along with the west coast.

As an addition to this bit of history, MAGIC intelligence on the Spanish connection was obtained by monitoring Japanese diplomatic traffic between Madrid and Tokyo. For a price, one week before Pearl Harbor, Spain agreed to perform espionage in the United States for Japan.

Over a period of about six months during 1942 at least eighty Spanish espionage reports containing information on convoys and related military data were sent to Madrid form the Spanish Embassy in Washington DC. The Japanese ambassador in Madrid was then given all this data and then he, in turn, forwarded to Tokyo in the PURPLE crypt system which US cryptanalysts routinely intercepted and read.

The Spanish effort never really got off the ground (because of the evacuation) and ended in 1943.

It was originally planned that the Spanish agents would work with resident Japanese nets on the West Coast, providing communications outlets the Spanish consulates and the embassy.

But by the time the Spanish agents were in place, all West Coast ethnic Japanese had been evacuated and whatever intelligence gathering nets had been established were no longer in existence.

The Japanese were to pay the Spanish in Mikimoto pearls.

You can read all about this in "Shadows Dancing" by Tony Matthews

If I'm not wrong I think there were something like 128,000 Magic messages covering 160,000+ pages more then any of us will be able to read in a lifetime. So in fact none of us probably will ever know the whole truth.

Yes, but that hasn't stopped the CWRIC and ethnic Japanese lobbiests from having politicians pass a law condemning the evacuation, paying out billions in restitution for "violating civil rights" and setting up a "civil liberties public education fund" to "re-educate" the American people - using taxpayer money of course. In fact here's a link to the most recent recipients. Do you think this an unbiased and partial list of people who want to discover the truth?

CCLPEP Grant Recipients Named | HOKUBEI ONLINE

Here's the list in PDF Your tax dollars at work.

California State Library - CCLPEP

Oh I also called the 9th Circuit and the Librarian was somewht familiar with the Coram Nobis cases and that all documents were properly certified by both parties plus there were also 26 boxes of documents involved so hardly a case where attacking one document supports your view.

Sound like the Librarian wasn't familiar with exhibit "D" that was missing the cover letter from Ringle's boss. Lowman was there. There may have been 26 boxes, but this document was a big part of the reperations lawyers case. You can belittle this one document if you like, but how many documents must submitted in a court of law under false pretense before it's considered illegal?

That was the era of seperate but equal which translated meant seperate but unequal.The Blacks were more or less ignored while say the Japanese & Indians just were percieved as being slightly less then American certainly not as American as Whites of European Descent.

The evacuation had nothing to do with blacks and indians. It had to do with known fifth column activity in the Japanese community on the west coast in a time of total war when America was losing the war.

 

Internment Archives: Testimony of David D. Lowman

above one can see the full document bob alludes too but notice...
1st paragraph...Notice part about using Whites & Negroes through Japanese whom we can't trust completely.

2nd paragraph...Notice use and placement of words PLAN in first sentence . In the 2nd sentence notice use of word HOPE.

3rd paragraph....Use of word connections could very well seem to imply an attempt to recruit.

4th paragraph ...Notice about aquiring evidence through first hand accounts & newspapers. Contacts through prominent Americans & Japanese in the movie industry? establishing contacts with prominent Negroes?

A few other comments...

1. The subject seems to some to be that MAGIC showed evacuation/internment neccessary but if that's the case then why when DeWitt demanded those things on 1/29/42 did McCloy demand something concrete to justify it? I mean DeWitt wasn't privy to MAGIC was he? McCloy & Stimson were privy to it's existence right? Seems to me McCloy wouldn't need to get more info from DeWitt since he was in the loop and the latter wasn't. Now one could argue defference to the commander in the field therefore defer to DeWitt but that argument then undercuts the importance of MAGIC in the decision making process right? Another way at looking at it is to look at Hawaii there General Emmons was against evacuation or internment even though Washington officials supported it if deference to the man in the field applies here then again it undercuts the importance of MAGIC in the decision making process.

2. Of all the no-no boys well if I understand correctly if one denounced his Japanese citizenship then in the eyes of the Japanese government you were basically considered dead right? Now alot of those involved may have things like inheritances at stake if they renounce their Japanese citizenship then they loose all rights to such. I can understand that and it certainly doesn't mean they're disloyal Americans considering the circumstances. Now just what does it really mean to answer those two questions ? I mean if a real conspirator/disloyal JA wanted to harm the US war effort all they had to do was lie to both questions.

3. As far as the Japanese Americans that served Imperial Japan during the war as I understand it they weren't really trusted by the Japanese and really did they have a choice? As I understand it if they didn't do as they did there families would be harrassed.

Anyways we're just going in circles and nothings being achieved.

 

Where to begin..
1. AS pe ther "Bob" giving reviews over on Amazon you also only point out part of that message.
2. No MAGIC doesn't neccessarily PROVE 5th column activity.
3. On the Spanish Embassy thing as I understand it was mainly German Agents getting the info then forwarding it to Spanish Embassy's especialy forwarding them to Cuba & Brazil . Oh just what is your source on this? Shadows Dancing? Yeah the guy giving reviews over on Amazon brought that book up too ,I did find an internet friend who told me it uses the term "allegedly" a little too much so.. Anyways I have ordered it. Also AbWehr still had 44 agents in the US passing on info through the same Spanish Embassy's so just who is to say it wasn't German agents conducting espionage for the Japanese?
4. No I know Lowman was there and on cross examination had to admit that MAGIC intercetps didn't prove that ONE Japanese American was recruited to conduct espionage for the Japanese. The court said everything was proper and the the Justice Department didn't object frankly I'll take that info over a bunch of people who are always criticising the other side of being fraudaulent & such. Furthermore even if Ringle didn't speak for the entire ONI he most certainly was the most qualified given he lead the raid on the los Angelos Consulate.
5. No it had everything to do with racism..It's brought up quite a bit that Japanese Internees had hearings and such but let me ask just how many minorities back then set in judegement of themselves? How many minority judges & prosecutors were there? How many minorities got really "fair " hearings back then compared to Whites?

 

Source please?

 

Here is a bit from a book Biak lent to me called 'Air Raid-Pearl Harbor!'.

Most Americans thought of the Japanese as people who made cheap toys and had large front teeth and bad eyesight. Supposedly, they couldn't pronounce 'L's and they said 'prease' instead of 'please'. Japan was thought to be a silly, funny place filled with kimonos and paper houses, a place where people copied merchandice made in the United States or England and always took off their wooden shoes before entering a home.

If you find this offencive, please dont direct it towards me, because i do NOT think this of the Japanese people. I am only repeting what the book said. and plus, that is what most Americans thought during WWII and such. I feel Japanese people are strong will and strong hearted and that is a good trait among people (and if someone already said that please dont think of me as a 'copy-cat' because if i read this whole thread my eyes whould fall out of my sockets, but i did read most of it).
Again, the paragraph from above DOES NOT highlight my thoughts on the Japanese.
also, if you people from higher up in the ranks of this forum feel the need to delete this post because of offencive matters, feel free to.

 

Don't worry Radar, your post is fine.

 

Radar4077, not disputing what you read in the book you mentioned, but I wonder at the "cheap toys" part since it seems the moniker of cheap Japanese goods showed up post-war when they were trying to rebound their economy.

Then again I’m not saying that the Japanese didn’t export many types of toys to the US between the wars, but their major exports were high quality silks, lacquered products, and beautiful porcelains. High quality tinplate toys were the standard, and any "cheap toys" were a much smaller percentage.

Japanese tin plate toys first appeared in the Meiji and Taisho era. Japan also had been a major producer of tin toys for as long as the Europeans, but it was not until the late 1940's, 50's and 60's that production reached its height. Around 1874-1875, imported tin plate was mostly used for oil cans. However, increasing numbers of imported tin plate toys from Germany brought about Japan's entry into the tin plate toy business. At that time, while Germany provided state of the art tin plate toys that included trains and boats, Japan crafted conventional tin plate toys such as rattles, Jinrikisha (rick shaw), and kamenoko.

Initially, the tin toy business in Japan did not fair well until the Sino-Japanese war of 1894, when the business started picking up. With the introduction of printing machines for the tin plate, and the technology of clockwork from Germany, Japan's tin plate industry accelerated. Eventually, Japan became the reputable tinplate tin toy producing center, leaving behind Germany in the aftermath of World War I.

Japan continued to produce high quality tin toys until after the World War II. Producing a wide variety of tin cars, novelty toys, wind up toys, robots and celluloid animals. While the toys were mostly aimed for the American market, they where marked "Foreign" (rather than "Made in Japan").

Goto:

Tin Toy,Wind Up Toys,Tin Toy Robots,Cars,Planes,Trains,Cars and Litho Plate Animals

It wasn’t until the law changed in the twenties that items made in Japan were listed as such, before then they used the word Nippon or Foreign to identify their non-American origin. And post-war they were labeled; Made in Occupied Japan for the most part.

Just a thought that perhaps the book was reflecting a post-war attitude and not a pre-war attitude about Japanese goods.

 

I agree 100% Clint, but thats also the problem. Stereotypes have no basis where it matters most. The facts. In the US, the perception of the Japanese during the war was based heavily on the stereotypes of the era. While it is unfortunate, we all know how little the facts, once known, do to change that perception.

 

I must say they my opinion of the Japanese is very very high, the most polite people that I have met include teenagers from Japanese families, polite, considerate, and a high value on friendship.

Also, where would we be without Anime and very weird and inappropriate game shows?

 

probably nowhere

 

Source please?

Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan

Bergamini, Japan's Imperial Conspiracy

 

AS pe ther "Bob" giving reviews over on Amazon you also only point out part of that message.

I'm aware you are one in the same also.

On the Spanish Embassy thing as I understand it was mainly German Agents getting the info then forwarding it to Spanish Embassy's especialy forwarding them to Cuba & Brazil . Oh just what is your source on this? Shadows Dancing?

German Agents? Perhaps. I haven't looked into it, but I have read Shadows Dancing and suggest that you do the same.

No I know Lowman was there and on cross examination had to admit that MAGIC intercetps didn't prove that ONE Japanese American was recruited to conduct espionage for the Japanese.

Doubtful. The MAGIC intercepts speak for themselves. As for the Justice Department, they sat on evidence for political reasons.

Furthermore even if Ringle didn't speak for the entire ONI he most certainly was the most qualified given he lead the raid on the los Angelos Consulate.

You're referring to The Tachibana case (March 1941) about which Peter Irons' wrote in his "Justice at War":
"...There was no question that Tachibana headed an espionage ring on the West Coast that enlisted a number of Japanese Americans, both aliens and citizens (sic), nor that the government knew the identities of its members..."

Irons is no supporter of the evacuation, either...

No it had everything to do with racism..

Then why weren't ethnic Japanese outside the combat zones also sent to Relocation Centers? How about other Asians as well?

Look, initially your comments here while incorrect were at least readable. Your comments over at Amazon were so convoluted I finally ignored them. They're starting to sound convoluted here, too.

Lastly, your first post on the Amazon site mentioned you had never even read the MAGIC intercepts indicating fifth-column activity. Sounds like you need to do a lot more studying before having such strong opinions on the subject.

 

COMMENT: No my comments weren't incorrect. I don't think I stated that I had never read MAGIC on Amazon. I'm also not the one that only prints just parts of a MAGIC intercept.

 

I don't think I stated that I had never read MAGIC on Amazon.

If you are Brian Gray posting on Amazon you wrote:

"It's not in the MAGIC files I've seen the ones from Ibiblio.org ."

Then you wrote:

"Ok found it. How many other messages Bob?? One message from one geographical area hardly constitutes a huge 5th coloumn /network furthermore you left out part of the message which tends to indicate the need to hire Whites"

I'm also not the one that only prints just parts of a MAGIC intercept.

As if that's relevent. I posted what pertains to nisei on the west coast engaged in fifth-column activity.

The only other review you have on Amazon is "Chariots of the Gods". Maybe you better stick to that.

I doubt you've even read the Malkin and Lowman books for that matter.

 

Oh I've posted other reviews Bob even if you bothered to look. As far as what I posted above well it did take me awhile to find it but that hardly means I never read MAGIC. When you posted it earlier I did remember the message just not the entire contents. I just remembered there was more to it then what you posted and yes it is relevant. In our debate over on Amazon about a book review I brought up several things about Japanese having trouble getting their espionage network working after war broke out because of Central & South American countries causing all sorts of problems.
If you back to my post on 7/24/2010 2:48 AM you will see the problems in interepreting that message as showing a large network being erected. In the 1st paragraph it states about using whites & negroes through Japanese who we CAN'T trust. In the 2nd parargraph it uses the word PLAN in the 1st sentence & HOPE in the 2nd sentence ,hardly an indication of success . In the 3rd parargraph connections seesm to imply a wish to recruit not an indication of success in that regard . In the 4th paragraph it notes using mainly first hand accounts, newspapers ,magazines and radi broadcasts furthermore talks about contacts in the movie industry and amongst negros. Once again I'm posting a link to the message in question that you value so highly it starts off with "We are doing everything in our power " now that sounds really,really indicative of a large effective network. Furthermore that message was in response from Tokyo to Washington earlier pushing for establishment of an espionage network versus a propaganda type one in the US. It's almost sounds like a bearuocratic type response to the effect of "yeah yeah yeah we are getting on top of it" in order to show higher ups that you are doing something.

http://internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00211&search_id=49027&pagenum=069


No I'm not being convoluted here or on Amazon. You linked to a website about defending America's outposts ,Chapter V and I then used that same reference in pointing out pages 120-130 showing communications between DeWitt & officials in Washington proving some of my points . I then also referred to that same website about attacking the military neccessity angle. You say I'm convoluted but I do cite my references and even list page numbers. I do have Peter Iron's "Justice at War" so could you please tell me the page number that you quoted from in your post from yesterday? I'm in the process of reading Tony Matthew's " Shadows Dancing" and I wonder if you read page 31? The book mainly backs up what I'm saying about the immense problems the Japanese had once war broke out ,interning Japanese-Americans or not. The US was very,very wary of neutrals such as facist Spain. The Germans through their 'Bolivar' network were causing far more damage to the Allied War effort even before 2/19/1942 & Executive Order 9066(and after) then what the Japanese could ever have hoped to accomplish. This network he talks about seems to have suffered alot from very,very unreliable info not to say it didn't work well on occasion. Anyways from what I read most of the proposed and actual intel gathering was to be forth coming from non-Japanese. Unless you could actually cite something from the book that disproves just what I said? Or proves what your saying? If it's so great then how come you haven't posted a review on it? It certainly pertains to the subject you purpoert to be expert at.

 

Chapter V: Japanese Evacuation From the West Coast

Ok in the above link where in chapter V does it state what your saying? Now in chapter V or VIII it has General Clark & Admiral Stark both commenting on the military neccessity of the matter. As I said over on our debate in the Amazon review pages 120-130 tend to support what I was saying that pressure for exclusion came from the bottom up ,not the top down. As far as McCloy yes he did say that in 1984 but in 1981 it was far different ,it seems in 1984 he was jumping on the Lowman bandwagon about MAGIC being the reason behind the exclusion/internemnt because it put him in a better light. He was booed (as you stated earlier about hostile crowds) but simply because he more or less he stated the exclusion/internment was retribution for Pearl Harbor now the man was getting up in years so maybe we can excuse it as just a poor use of words but if we do that in that case then we must also figure his memory wasn't as sharp pertaining to the alledged cae that MAGIC was the reason for exclusion/internment. Furthermore re-read my posts over on Amazon more carefully I cite pages of Bendentson's & McCloy's testimony that tended to show the reason for exclusion/internement was hostility against the Japanese Americans.

http://internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00215&search_id=49204&pagenum=5..this page and the next one.
In the link I provided above to "Guarding America's Outposts"(page 126 I think) where Admiral Stark proceeded to point out that the West Coast had a lower priority compared to Hawaii and the Far Pacific while in John Costello's "The Pacific War" Nimitz commented on the wisdom of trying to secure the US- Australian lifeline when there was such a clamour about the West Coast and/or Hawaii being so weakly defended. Have you ever read "Combined Fleet Decoded" by John Prados especially pages 25-40 & 295-298?
Also in chapter VIII of "Guarding America's Outposts" read pages 207-210..Emmons states that other then one incident no act of espionage/sabotage had occured since PH the article also speaks of the racial tolerance in the islands.. He also stated he needed skill Japanese labor to build up the defences so the Japanese could be trusted to do that on suh a vital base?

Also go back to my 8/4/2010 post of 1:34 PM I did some editing that prove once again you leave out relevant info from your sources.