BATTLE OF BRITAIN: NO BLITZ?

friedrich h . Lets see if I have this right, first destroy the airfields, then capture them ( without invading) fly the Bf 109s on to the airfields, and then launch the invasion!
Please, please tell me your just having a laugh

 

Just as a matter of interest - in the French campaign, were the airfields actually captured by the Luftwaffe with no support from other forces ? Or did the Wehrmacht get there first ?
In either case, surely doing the same thing in England would have been a different matter entirely......

 

German Underestimation of the RAF: From a pre-battle report by Beppo Schmidt of the Luftwaffe Air Intelligence Department.

" The High Command is inflexible in organisation and strategy. As formations are rigidly attached to their home bases" "Command at medium level suffers fromoperations being controlled in most cases by officers no longer accustomed to flying"

" The Luftwaffe is clearly superior to the RAF as regards strength, equipment, training, command and location of bases"

" The Luftwaffe would be able to achieve a decisive result this year (1940) if allowed to take advantage of the period of better weather from July to October"

This report also assessed British Fighter production at 180-300 per month maximum, argued that the Bf110 was superior to the Hurricane and crucially there was no mention of RDF at all in the assessment.

With this degree of wishful thinking at the start of an operation, with Beppo either the dimmest intelligence chief in the world or (more likley) telling his superiors what they wanted to hear, Adlerangriff was always going to start wrong and stay that way.

Jumbo

 

Well, perhaps a little airbourne troops or maybe the invasion would go first, taking on account that if things would have been the same way throughout all September the RAF would have been very weak to oposse. And then, with the bases on Souheast England in German hands, (after or before the invasion) the German fighters would have accomplished to sweep the remains of the RAF. Obviously, at a high price. Because, ancient warriors as you are you would have gave a hell of a fight.

 

Friedrich, I think you are wrong about the Luftwaffe being able to "capture" and "use" airfields inside a hostile country. It was quite impossible even in an England with an "inflexible command structure". As an example - how are you going to get German ammunition, bombs or even fuel or just food to these airbases? Fly it in??

An airborne division can do that today in Afghanistan perhaps. Certainly it was impossible in England in 1940. The only plausible scenario for invasion I can think of is contained in my essay (go and read it, you'll like it) and even that requires perfect weather (or good anyway) and luck.

 

That's an interesting 'what if' - with fighter production still running at approximately 100 per month throughout September '40, the thought of Spitfires and Hurricanes ( even the legendary 'last 50' ) tearing into those 'Tante Ju' 52s full of Fallschirmjager ...

 

Well, it would have been a bloody butchery... And yes, weather and luck was needed... OK!

But Martin, check your BoB posts in "What happened today?" and you'll see what I mean. The RAF had lost not as many aeroplanes as the Luftwaffe, but remember it was 1/4 of it... So, in proportion it was bad. And these days, late August the losses had become bigger then the German... at that rate air superiority could have been achieved.

 

Friedrich H [/QUOTE] "The RAF had lost not as many aeroplanes as the Luftwaffe, but remember it was 1/4 of it... So, in proportion it was bad. And these days, late August the losses had become bigger then the German... at that rate air superiority could have been achieved."

Unfortunately for the Germans, they were only producing approximatly 200+ Bf 109s a month, while the British were producing nearly 500 Spitfires and Hurricanes a month.
Also there is the fact that any British pilot shot down over Britain, who wasn`t killed or wounded, could climb into a new aircraft and fly on other missions on the same day! While ALL German pilots shot down over Britain, were lost to the Luftwaffe for the remainder of the war.

 

Well, nice points, redcoat. True, but still could have been done.

 

As posted on page 1 of this topic, what needs to be read by all is Stephen Bungay's book 'The Most Dangerous Enemy'. It shows quite clearly that RAF Fighter Command was stronger (in terms of pilots and aircraft) at what is recognised as the end of the Battle, than when it started in July 1940. At the same time, many Luftwaffe units were at such a critically low state that they were withdrawn from front-line service. ZG 2 and V.(Z)/LG 1, for example. And read Steinhilper's book to see what state his Gruppe in JG 52 was like. The reality was that the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain. Go check out Bungay's book - it's all there in cold, hard facts.

 

The Blitz should not have taken place, but even with that the fault of the Luftwaffe defeat in the BoB was squarely on the shoulders of Herman Goring himself, he paid no importance in attacking the Chain Home & Low Radar Stations, he forbade followup attacks on Airfields two days in a row, paid no interest in going after Britains vital aircraft production and maintenance industries, had no interest in destroying vital centres of Road and Rail junctures.

Herman Goring might have been a very asture Ace in WWI but he had no aptitide in running the vast Luftwaffe Machine, eventually Goring was responsable for the loss.

 

The fact that Luftwaffe was defeated had little to do with anything Goring did during the Battle, but a lot to do with Dowding and his air defence system.

He did at first, but thanks to the difficulty in KOing these targets and the British use of mobile transmitters to cover any gaps in coverage, it appeared that the raids were ineffectual, and to win the battle he needed a quick result.

what's the point in putting more holes in a grass field if they can't catch Fighter Command on the ground.

Useful if you are fighting a long campaign, but the Germans didn't have time, they only had a couple of months at the most

Pointless if you can't invade due to lack of air superiority

No. In the Battle of Britain they were fighting an enemy who was well prepared, well equipped, and far stronger than they realized.

In The BOB it wasn't so much the Luftwaffe lost the battle,it was more the fact that Fighter Command won the battle.

 

The best the Luftwaffe could have done would be to force Dowding to plan B. That is the RAF intended to withdraw the fighters from the southern airfields to the Midlands, which were out of range of the Luftwaffe fighters. The withdrawn groups would be able to asorb the new aircaft & pilots.

Then, if the Wehrmacht tried to cross the Channel, or as RAF Fighter Command recovered, the fighters could surge south again.

Not only was Britian outproducing Germany in fighter planes it was also training pilots faster. I dont have the numbers at hand to cite the exact proportion, but RAF pilot traning was steadily increasing faster than the Luftwaffe. For reasons unknown to me (Goering again?) the Luftwaffe was still using its prewar training methods, requiring many months to carefully turn out a well rounded airman. The RAF had been streamlining its training to focus on just the essentials a fighter pilot needed, thus cutting its training time significantly.

 

At the time of the Blitz the Luftwaffe was well on its way in securing air supremacy, are you kidding about your first statement, Goring paid little interest in destroying the radar installations, it had nothing to do with Dowding.

As i said, Goring forbade follow up attacks on Radar installation two days in a row, allowing their repair and being put back into service. Can you show me the proof of mobile radar stations circe mid 1940.

What is the point, i'll tell you the point followup attacks render forward airfields like Hawkinge, Lympne and Manston out of commision, they are to dangerous to use, pilots won't land on a damaged field knowing that an undercarriage might hit a unrepaired bombcrater.

You don't get it, wipe out the British aircraft production and maintenance facilities you kill off the RAF, where does the RAF get its aircraft when production line are destroyed, EBAY.

Gaurantee you wipe out a vast proportion of Britains capacity to produce and maintain aircraft you do achieve air superiority.

 

Just wondered about this: if a number of Bf 109´s were attached to every bomber was the number of bombing missions reduced by the Germans actually? If there were no Bf 109´available I think the bombers could not go...? Anyone know? Thanx!

 

That is a good question, i have to say assigning say three fighters to each bomber seems like a good idea, but it is flawed, bombers have to stick together for mutual protection as their covering fire in theory protects the bomber next to it and that you deploy a protective fighter screen to protect the bombers from interdiction by enemy fighters, that works in theory but in the heat of battle theory is a pile of shyte, also one thing goes against the individual bomber protection by Bf-109's and that is their limited range over Britian, so the industrial heartland of Britain is in the Midlands totally out of range of the Bf-109.

 

Less missions would also mean less pressure on the British pilots.

 

This is not quite correct. For more details see the following threads:
Axis History Forum :: Luftwaffe vs Allied bombing ...was there a difference?
Feldgrau.net :: View topic - How Churchill Won the Battle of Britain
a few excerts:
Talkiing about the raids on Berlin

and about the single He111

 

They were no where near it. Indeed if they had continued they probably would have insured English air supremacy.
A quote and graph that Hop posted at:
Axis History Forum :: Battle of Britain

and another

This hardly looks like the way to achieve air supremacy

 

Ok you have shown me aircraft numbers, show reserve pool pilot numbers, if memory serves Fighter Command were drawing pilots from Bomber, Coastal and Fleet Air Arm Commands and as far as i know only six fresh pilots were being delivered per day from OTU's.

This is in conjunction that the Luftwaffe could call on a pilot strength of nearly 10,000+ from the Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, Heer and Civilian pool of pilots.