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Best Sub-machine gun or machine pistols of WWII?

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by mp38, Jun 18, 2002.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  2. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    Exactly, and the B.A.R definitely doesn't fit that definition. It doesn't fire pistol cartridges and is far too bulky and heavy to fit the role smgs have been intended for in modern war (e.g. WW2 onward). I'm surprised you, as a military vet, would forget this ;)
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I never fired a B.A.R. M-60s and the like, and Ma Deuce. I did get to ride a gunship once, 75mm doth rain down from Heaven.

    But anyway, the difference is hair fine from this distance. The Feds used B.A.Rs. to counter the Thompsons of the mobsters of the '30s.
     
  4. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    That's mainly because, it being America, the mobsters were often just as well armed as para-militaries. Just because it was issued to cops doesn't make it an smg. I've never met a WW2 vet or any other firearms user who would classify the B.A.R as a submachinegun, especially not someone who used one.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    LiIke I said, "Close enough."
     
  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    If anyone is really, really interested in the subject of what is best, there is a truly engrossing YouTube series called Forgotten Weapons where a couple of very knowledgeable people shoot all kinds of arms and then evaluate the results. Of course, reliability is the #1 issue, but #2 is something you really wouldn't think about. It seems the rate of fire is the number two deciding factor in the effectiveness of a submachine gun. It seems the rate of fire determines where your bullets land. A subgun with a high rate of fire causes your muzzle to climb, but a piece with a too slow rate of fire tends to give you time to try and compensate against the recoil and also throws slugs all over the place.
    It tends to get a bit more tricky than just rate of fire, because the arm must have the right weight and balance to make use of that correct rate of fire.
    The Thompson, used correctly with the off-arm just supporting the muzzle will do that. The Finnish Soumi is also a gun that when used by a trained soldier will stack up a whole drum mag into a plate size target at 100 meters.
    Most subguns work, more or less, but few are accurate enough to put an entire magazine through a gun slot or window at any distance. If you just want to spray a bunch of bushes with an MP40, then have at it. But if you want to put a magazine load into somebodies chest at 100 meters, there aren't many subguns that will do that.

    Reliability, correct rate of fire, and the correct balance and weight to make use of that rate of fire. That's what makes a truly great submachine gun, and there are damned few of them out there.

    .
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  8. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    Sure I get ya. Didn't mean to be pedantic. Just find it amusing to consider something that weighs 15-20lbs and fires .30-06 an smg :p

    Great series, I always enjoy their videos. Solid gun history without the usual bubba "hey yall lookit this boomstick" silliness.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    B.A.R. is a bitty gun.
     
  10. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    You think so? Damn you and me must have some serious height/weight differences then :D
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    My weapon of choice was mounted in pairs. The "clips" weighed ten pounds each. And they could kill at four miles. (No, not an aimed shot, but the dead don't nitpick.)
     
  12. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Either Opana is screwing with you (quite possibly) or his meds have kicked in. The M1918/A1/A2 BAR isn't even close to fitting the definition of SMG. It's.30-06 round, alone precludes it from being considered. I've never seen anyone claim it was a pistol caliber.
     
  13. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Gee OP, would you care to hump your "weapon of choice" in the sand lot? No mechanical aid allowed!:D

    Jumping into this late, I would say that as long as an smg is light AND dependable, it's a good one. Add inexpensive and it's great. I realize that only one other person agrees with this, but my choice would be the M3 "grease gun". Never fired one but it's supposed to be quite controllable too.
     
  14. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Obviously, you. like me, only go to war with a gun bearer. "Mustafa, hand me that Barret .50 so I can pot that technical with the mounted 12.7 mm across the valley." Or, "Mustafa, bring me the 81 mm mortar so I can assplode those fellas in the farmhouse over that-a-way." Extra points if Mustafa can make a decent gin and tonic after a long day of tough safari work.

    .
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Actually, I went to war in a boat. We had a beer cooler below decks.

    You people who walk to work are just weird.
     
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  16. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Not weird. Exhausted maybe, but not weird.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Still sounds like work to me. o_O
     
  18. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    Judging from his posts I recon he's just having a laugh. Hard to tell on the net sometimes. Ah well. :)
     
  19. Mussolini

    Mussolini Gaming Guru WW2|ORG Editor

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    I thought the MP family (MP 38/40) had issues when it came to firing when laying prone due to the length of their magazines? They are certainly iconic and have the whole German thing going for them, but I would imagine being able to lay prone while firing would be pretty important when discussing the best SMG etc etc.

    The PPSH and Thompson all seem to have much smaller profiles so I would assume are easier to fire when laying prone. Were there issues firing such guns 'gangsta' style...IE sideways...
     
  20. hyusu

    hyusu New Member

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    Side mounted mag guns (e.g. Type 100 and Sten) would still have an advantage over those if we're discussing best smg for prone firing.
     

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