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BLOODLANDS - EUROPE BETWEEN HITLER AND STALIN by Timothy Snyder

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by padutchgal, Aug 27, 2012.

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  1. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Maybe those guards killed also died of old age...?

    Some of the abt 1.000 shot POWs in total died while trying to escape, some were
    executed for crimes, some were illegally executed. Prison sentences were given to
    some of the guards in court martials for the illegal shootings .
     
  2. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    It is not a myth but a fact, that all returning POWs were considered at first as possible traitors.
    They were sent to filtering (prison) camps, where they were interrogated for weeks.

    After that many were excecuted, even more were sentenced to GULAG, the rest were freed.
     
  3. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Ahh - the infamous "Nazi-card"...

    A small dictionary of soviet/Russian English - normal English:

    "Nazi apologist crap" = not supporting the official soviet/Russian propaganda lies
    "a Fascist" or "a Nazi" = a person not supporting the official soviet/Russian propaganda lies
    "sovereign democracy" = staged democracy = dictatorship
    "freedom of speech" = you are free to support the official soviet/Russian propaganda lies (if you don't you'll be jailed/killed)
    "voluntary" = you'll be killed/jailed if you don't volunteer
    etc. etc.

    Stalin and Hitler started the war in Europe TOGETHER, as ALLIES. It was Stalin who wanted the war most.
    Stalin/the USSR was not an innocent victim, but a warmonger. The government of the USSR IS INDEED
    to blame - as well as that of Germany's.

    Leningrad had the life line open for the hole duration of the siege - for years. Your examples were different,
    since there was either not the time nor possibility to evacuate - unlike in Leningrad. Leningrad could have
    been evacuated, if chosen to do so. It was a deliberate decision not to.

    Yeah yeah, everything was totally voluntary in the USSR. See my dictionary...

    They are not used to silence and/or hide the opposition/unwanted...

    There were less killings and less prisoners after Stalin. I sincerely hope you don't need ME to find you
    numbers about this, since the world is full of material. I really would not like to waste my time finding
    you evidence that the earth indeed is circular, that the earth indeed revolves around the sun and so on...


    I never wrote nor meant, that blind killings of total families or villages would be ok or "justified in accordance with international law". If you claim so please show my text saying so. Of course all suspects should have been examined and judged.

    A willing and active helper of partisans is a partisan, relative or not.

    I'm not saying, that the German partisan war was always - or even for the most part - fair or according to international war. Neither were the partisans the holy freedom fighters the soviet propaganda wants to present them. The war against them was not totally unjust nor totally against the international law.

    Stalin had at least unwritten policies for the German civilians or POWs. No written ones were needed - unlike in Germany.
    For the "soviet" (the Polish, the Baltic etc. included) citizens however there were plenty of leathal written policies...
     
  4. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Gentlemen, We are here to debate in a polite and civilized way.

    Lets keep in mind that you can point out the faults and flaws of Stalin's Russia and communism without being a Nazi or Fascist. Certainly there is enough evidence that Stalin's Russia was neither a 'Worker's Paradise' or any kind of paradise at all.

    One can also state that as bad a Stalin's Russia was, Nazi Germany was worse. One can feel this is true without being a mindwashed apologist for communism or Stalin. Gulags no not equal Concentration Camps, if for no other reason than there was no 'Doctor' at the rail sidings seperating those who would be worked and starved to death and those simply gassed in a 'delousing shower'.

    Stalin and Hitler were not allies in the true sense. They had competing goals and their armed force's never fought side by side. Compare their 'alliance' to that of say Germany-Italy or US-UK, the difference is quite obvious. Finland-Germany had a closer working relationship than Germany-Russia, yet they only saw themselves as co-belligerent's, not true allies.

     
  5. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    There are no recorded deaths OF STARVATION anywhere - not in the POW camps nor institutions either. As I have already explained a couple of times before
    that reason of death (starvation) was not used - for the reasons I have also explained. The lack of use of that specific reason doesn't mean, that I didn't exist in reality.

    The general hunger catastrophy was narrowly avoided - but only just. Therefor statistically there is no significant general increase, although IIRC a small one. As I wrote before the Finns lost in average 6 kg:s in 1942 - and obesity was not an issue in those days. This was told in radio few days ago.

    Here's however some demographics of Finland. The numbers include also the war casualties. I couldn't find the annul military losses now, but will try later again.

    Demographics of Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  6. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    And I say you have no facts in order to back that. Leave aside the Soviet soldiers/citizens who actively helped/served with the Nazis and give me the data that shows that 'all' returning POW's were treated as traitors.
    For instance why did the Soviets (late war) directly put all released POW's into the army if they were thought to be enemy agents?
     
  7. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    We have been through this.

    If hunger caused POW deaths to shoot up to 20%+ and if the hunger applied to every Finn (as you claim) then show me the 20% death rate for Finns.

    Do you get it now?
    If all were treated the same then they must have died at the same rate.
     
  8. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I dont have a problem with Karjala or anyone disliking Russis. Can say that I blame him, Finland was Russia's colony for quite some time so im not surprised at his feelings towards Russia. However, what I am NOT ok with is the deliberate revisionism of history of a country just because you are dont like it.

    Karjala has been presented numerous facts regarding many aspects which contradict his current beliefs. What is more bizarre is that all of these sources presented have been from the West and even from Finland, yet not only is he not interested in them but keeps claiming Soviet propoganda. If he is not interested in learning why is he here?

    Huh? What are you talking about? What
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Are you sure these are not penal battalions you mean?
     
  10. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Again, we have already discussed this. Remember, you presented a source which some rogues quickly pointed out was a forgery and others pointed tot he fact that Stalin (in your own article) preferred Germany to go to war with Europe instead of Russia (which is irrelevant anyway since your source was fiction!). You have chosen to simply push aside the facts presented and continue on with your conspiracy theory.... Why?

    The life line in Leningrad was only usable during the winter when the water would freeze. During this time, the ice road was packed with civilians VOLUNTARILY leaving the city (my grandma was amongst them). Just curious, when should Leningrad have been evacuated? Who would defend the city if all were evacuated? When was the last time any Govt. of any country ordered its entire city to be evacuated ever?
    The Nazis did not evacuate Berlin. I ask again, is the German Govt. to blame for all of the German women who got raped by Russian soldiers?

    More smoke clouds Karjala, you have nothing because you know nothing.


    You wrote the following...

    The Nazi policies of killing famillies of partisans in the area existed! So was the policy of killing 10 civilians for every German killed by a partisan! What I described was the brutal policies which the Nazis used. The fact that you can state that such brutal methods was accordance with international law, clearly shows that you are unfamiliar with what occurred on the eastern front. Such a statement could never have been made by anyone who has researched the topic.

    Read the above. You wrote it for all to see. Karjala, what is your favorite book on the Partisan wars on the Eastern Front (meaning Russia VS Germany not Finland).

    Convenient when dodging a question. Very well, how many German POW's died in captivity in Russia? This too has been presented to you but you chose to ingnore it anyway....
     
  11. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    This thread causes more anger than it brings facts. Karjala, please show up with the facts/sources that the others want to have. I think its only fair to bring them. And in the meanwhile we will be all fine guys who won´t picking on each other, ok so far?!
     
  12. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    This thread is way off topic. Karjala, if you wish to start a thread on the partisans, do so. Remember to cite sources for your arguments, and be aware that others do not share your opinion. Everyone should be nice with no personal attacks.

    This thread is closed.
     
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