Canadian 3rd Div. v 12 SS Panzer

Here we have a forum based in Toronto with 3 topics about Canada ! Bit of effort needed here, I think.

We've debated Malmedy at great length. But what went on in Normandy between the Canadians and the Hitlerjugend ? I've only found half-a-page in D'Este relating to events at Chateau Audrieu . Apparently Kurt Meyer was hotly pursued after the war by Canada.
Anyone know more about what happened in Normandy ?

 

Not much in detail. The Canadians were as ferocious as the Hitler Youths. There were shootings of prisoners on both sides which were started by the HJs. Meyer never gave an order to shoot prisoners. This was a case of battle euphoria. When Kurt Meyer was captured, he was handed over to the Canadians who sentenced him to death. Kurt Meyer announced that upon the discovery of what happened top the Canadians, he ordered the person responsible to the most dangerous sector of fighting where he was killed. Meyer's sentence was communted and he was release in 1955 due to the fact that the Canadians were also shooting prisoners and therefore Meyer could not be held accountable to the conduct of the men at lower levels.

 

Kurt Meyer's book "Grenadiers" may be useful from his standpoint as well as Reginald H. Roy's "1944 The Canadians in Normandy", which covers their involvement during the campaign.

E

 

Thanks, Erich.
I have Meyer's book here somewhere and the other one you mention is new to me . . .

 

Martin :

Roy's book is Canadian War Museum Historical Publication # 19, from Macmillan of Canada

SCC Catolgue # NM95-16/19E

ISBN # 0-7715-9796-7, 1984

hth

E

 

The Battle in Normandy between 12th SS and 3rd Inf was very hard fought between two very strong units.It was intense and no holds barred. Once the SS began shooting prisnors the Canadians became very insensed and of course were reluctant to take prisonors themselves

 

Absolutely foul conduct during those encounters. I have read that the Hitler Youth were ordered by the Nazi hierarchy to take no prisoners, and this in turn gave the Canadians an idea to do the same regarding the HJ, however i can't acknowledge the truth behind this.
Have you all seen the pic of the Canadian soldier who has in his custody a very battered, very sore HJ soldier? I think this reinforces the ferocity of these encounters...

 

There is no doubt that once the killing of prisoners began around the Ardennes Abbey outside Caen, little quarter was given on either side. Dead Canadians were found with Op Orders implying that prisoners would not be taken if they were HJ.

A good website to look at is:

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/%7Egrempel/tours/normandy/welcome.html

 

I know there was no order given to shoot prisoners. The youths were full of Nazism spirit and when left on their own with no leadership, did cross the line. The older cadre knew not to shoot prisoners of the western allies. I believe it was a matter of training and indoctrination.

 

Interesting site, Sommecourt - thanks. Good bibliography, too.

 

Hallo!

I think the Canadians were tough and very professional soldiers who fought very bravely in both WWs even if they did not care, and certainly, unfairly they suffered a lot because of wars not of their own.
And I do not think that condeming Hitlerjugend's kids for behaving in the way they had been taught to behave is good. All of them were raised listening about how good Germany was, about how incredible man their Führer was, etc. But most important is that they were taught to obbey everything without hesitation. We are (or at least we used to be) a people educated and taught to obbey all the time. We are taught since our early childhood: "Obbey your elder brothers, your parents, your teachers, your priest and superior officers..." Well, but in Hiterjugend they were taught to obbey the most and they were taught that nationalsocialist spirit of combat was to fight in a fanatic level, with very cold blood. Canadians just revenged.

 

Sad but true on all accounts herr General.

 

Was 'Panzermeyer' present during these battles?

 

I have just finished reading "Grenadiers" by Kurt Meyer and it gives a pretty good idea of the battle conditions between the Canadians and the HJ Division, and the battles around Caen.

The incident at the Abbey where the Canadians were shot, occurred whilst Meyer was at the front lines checking the situation. Meyer spent the majority of his time travelling from hot spot to hot spot.

Meyer states in his testimony in his War Crimes trial that he instigated an investigation into the incident and had the officer responsible for the shootings sent to the front lines where he was killed a few days later. Accoprding to another report I have read on the incident, this officer was incensed over an incident that had occurred earlier to a group of German officers and NCO's which had been captured by an allied armoured reconnaisance force.

Both the regimental commander and the battalion commander of Panzer Artillery Regiment 130,(Panzer Lehr Division), along with 6 NCO's and enlisted men were taken prisoner by men from a British regiment in armoured cars.

They were ordered to form a human shield by their captors and when they refused, one badly injured German officer was beaten and tied to the front of one of the armoured cars. The British soldiers were apparently wary of anti-tank guns ahead of them. The rest of the group was then shot by the allied soldiers as they drove away.

One of these men survived and was later picked up by German troops, who passed the report on to the Divisonal staff.

The armoured car with the german officer tied to it was hit by an anti-tank gun and the officer was killed.

Meyer also stated that Canadian documents had been found that carried orders that stated "prisoners were not to be taken". This was an abrieviated order which actually said "prisoners were not to be taken where this would hinder operations". Naturally, this sort of order being passed down the line probably turned into "prisoners were not to be taken at any cost".

Meyer also states that when briefing the HJ troops during training, he and his officers did not hold back on their experiences on the Eastern Front, as that's where they expected the Division to be sent. But he does state that at no time did he tell his men that prisoners were not to be taken. He always expected that his men would treat prisoners with the respect they deserved.

Both the Canadians and the HJ were tough, dedicated soldiers, and with these sort of incidents happening around them, it could only be expected that individuals would take the law into their own hands, so to speak.

I think it would be very hard for anyone to not be affected by the sight of their friends and fellow soldiers dying in front of their very eyes, and not being able to do a thing about it.

War is definitely not a gentleman's past-time.

War crimes were committed by all sides in WW2, by individuals and groups. The loser however is the only one to pay the penalty.

 

If you look at the Divison's roll you will see some names of those who were renown for exceeding the rules. One that comes to mind is Wilhelm Mohnke. I believe he was in command of one of HJ's panzergrenadier regiments. So, regardless of what Panzer Meyer may have directed, I can see someone like Mohnke proceed with the shootings.

 

Very nice thoughts indeed.

Sniper: you couldn't be anymore right!!!

 

Was there a general problem with Discipline with the Canadians? They had certainly caused a lot of trouble in Britain, Goebbels even said that if the British were serious about attacking Germany then they ought to give each Canadian a Bottle of Whiskey, 40 cigarettes, a motorbike and declare Berlin out of bounds - the Canadians would be there the next day.

Having been cooped up in Britain for years it's possible that discipline had gone to pot and they were struggling to get it back: it may have contributed to the behaviour of the troops in Normandy.

Jumbo

 

Check out my positing on Kurt "Panzer" Meyer, in the section of Senior Waffen SS Officers bios im currently working on--im just getting to the part of the HJ and the Canadian 3rd I.D.

 

You chaps are being far too lenient on those HJ youths. There is nothing more dangerous than a 15 year old with a machine gun. These boys would not surrender, they had no fear.

Go here to learn more.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html#france

All companies of Canadians involved in the fight immediately after the massacre in the Abbey took prisoners.......except the company that witnessed the shooting.

 

What kind of trouble did they cause in Britain?

From my reading of first-hand accounts of actions such as Buron or Ortona, Canadian soldiers took the war personally and fought hard.
Discipline was not a problem. Indeed victories won by Canadians in Italy were a result of strict discipline between armour and infantry- something that British and American divisions had yet to learn.