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Churchill turning his back on Poland

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by Ben Dover, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. green slime

    green slime Member

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    You've done your "Reading Fail" trick again.
     
  2. freebird

    freebird Member

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    France had a more explicit guarantee than the British.
     
  3. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe the French should be blamed too much. Of course they lied, deceived and broke the military agreement, but I don't know any hypothetical scenario when telling the truth (sorry Poles, we can't do for you anything useful for a half a year, or maybe a year) would have changed anything. So really, who cares.
    Telling the truth would change nothing, the Poles would fight alone, like the Finns, or like the Swiss people planned to fight.

    Similarly the British, the Americans lied, deceived, broke agreements, but it is obvious that Stalin was unstoppable - even politically they were too weak to stop him.

    But the fact that they joined him in his designs, destroyed the Polish Government in Exile, imposed a puppet government in Poland is inexcusable. It was an outright, naked aggression against Poland.
     
  4. green slime

    green slime Member

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    It was the Polish Government which destroyed the Polish government. By making repeatedly themselves impossible to deal with. None of the states bordering Poland actually trusted Poland. Sort of unheard of, really, given their extremely short existence, and the common threats.
     
  5. freebird

    freebird Member

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    What treaties with Poland did the US & UK break in WWII?
     
  6. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    Poland was extremely aggressive immediately after WW1, as was to be expected given that it has no long established geographical borders, Polish history is one of (sometimes huge), expansion, followed by drastic reductions or dismemberment so the answer top the "what is Poland" is a lot more date dependent than for most other countries. Of all the "Versailles creations" it was probably the one less worth fighting for even if others like Yugoslavia and Tchecoslovakia were barely held together aggregates of peoples that had little liking for each other and were lumped together only because anything smaller would bee too easy (tempting) to gobble up by a large neighbour.

    The British needed the red army of they wanted to have a chance to get back to mainland Europe, no way they could face over a 100 German divisions by themselves, that doesn't mean they had to give Stalin all he wished for. Lend lease did not have a big physical impact until after Stalingrad, that doesn't mean it's absence would not have been disastrous for the USSR, Stalin needed the food, trucks and alluminium to get the red army back on it's feet after the disastrous 1941 losses, the Heer was already spent in 1942, though it retained a tactical edge, but the Soviets were not much better off, the wasteful wide all front offensives that made it impossible for the German to recover, Uranus was not the only effort, and possibly not even the biggest one, would not be possible without the knowledge that "more was coming".

    The 1939 DOW was all about stopping Hitler, though the extent of his madness was not yet fully apparent enough was visible, not about protecting Poland even though the treaties said something else. The true "betrayal" was that the Anglo French grand strategy was to sit behind the Maginot and wear the Germans down by blockade and aerial bombing (though the later had to wait a bit in order not to upset US public opinion), and neither would have any effect in time to save the Poles even if nobody expected them to last just a hew weeks.
     
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  7. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    But please, after WW1 Poland lost one-fourth of her territory. The territory had been Polish for more or less a half of a millennium.
    Maybe about two millions Poles lived there, not to mention other millions who would have preferred to live in Poland.
    So how was it possible for Poland to be an aggressor.

    Just seventeen years later over 100,000 of the Poles abandoned there would be murdered by the Soviets, in so called Polish Operation of the NKVD.
    Millions of other people would be murdered during so called Holodomor genocide.

    In which reality a country willingly abandon so many of its people, to be murdered at the convenience of the occupiers later.

    Those Westerners who supported that land grab, rooted for the "right side history" Soviets should be clearly labeled as enablers of the genocide, as enablers of ethnic cleansing of the Poles left there.
     
  8. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Mainly the agreement, which was regarded by the then Polish leader W. Sikorski as his greatest achievement:

    July 18th, 1941
    An official note addressed by H.M. Government to the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

    On the occasion of the signature of the Polish-Soviet Agreement of to-day's date — which reestablishes the relations between the two countries as they existed before 1939"e — I desire to take the opportunity of informing you that, in conformity with the provisions of the Anglo-Polish Agreement of August 25th, 1939, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have entered into no undertaking towards the U.S.S.R. which affect the relations between that country and Poland.
    I also desire to assure you that His Majesty's Government do not recognise any territorial changes which take place during the war.


    The US didn't break any treaties.
    Roosevelt actively deceived the Poles, lied to them about his intentions shortly before the 1944 American elections in order to disarm the Polish minority in the US. He discussed and coordinated this action with Stalin.
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    The best way to understand who were aggressors and ethnic cleansers is to see the ethnic map of Germans before the Great War. A massive land grab, mass murders and expulsion followed after Versailles Treaty and then even worse after the Potsdam agreement. Look:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It seems all the major powers, the US, Britain, France, and even Russia were in agreement that those lands were Polish.
    And they are still in agreement on this today.
    That Poland was a victim of German aggression, and because of that they demanded the lands were returned to Poland.

    It would be nice to show an example of at least one of those pink-unicorn-like mass murders. It think the readers would be interested.
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    These lands were handed over to poles under the conditions of Little Treaty of Versailles which required from Poland "to protect the interests of inhabitants of Poland who differ from the majority of the population in race, language, or religion".

    What Poles did to these minorities is obvious from the present day ethnic composition of Poland. Katyn, if ever happened, is a joke compared to what Poles did to their minorities: Germans, Jews, Rurhenians, White Russians, Slovaks, Ukrainians ... Sweep first in front of your doorstep.
     
  12. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Do you doubt that the dead polish men in Katyn were murdered by the Soviets?
    If Poland treated the Jews so badly, why did a lot of german jews went there after 1933?
     
  13. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Ask the people who forcibly redraw Polish borders leaving out not only all the non-Poles, but millions of Poles too. And forced them all into the hands of the Soviets.

    For a second opinion ask the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Belarusians - murdered, or sent to the Gulag as result of this redrawing.

    For a third opinion ask the millions of Ukrainian/Belarusian peasants who were robbed blind and forced like cattle into Kolkhozes, they enjoyed that very much, I'm sure.

    Isn't that strange, that people calling themselves liberals/progressives, living in a fantasy version of this reality, so frequently support the most genocidal ideas there are?
     
  14. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Cruzon line is a fair border, even too favorable for Poles.

    But why do you forget about the western polish border, about the grim destiny of Germans within newly created Poland, what about Jews?
     
  15. freebird

    freebird Member

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    What alternate reality are you living in?
    There was no Poland before WWI, so they certainly didn't "lose" any territory.
    Lands were carved out from Germany and the former Russian Empire to form a modern Poland.

    The west didn't support any land grab, but after WWII had little ability to prevent it.
     
  16. freebird

    freebird Member

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    And they didn't break this treaty, Poland was reformed after the war, some territory that was earlier incorporated into the USSR and German Reich was returnec and used to reform Poland.
    What they couldn't do was to prevent a communist government taking over in Warsaw
     
  17. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    Wow, Kai. That's awful. I wonder if Solzhenitsyn ever wrote about any of these poor people in the Gulag? It has been so long since I read his book. If any of the White Russians even made it past the Lubyanka? Amazing and sad story.
     
  18. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The puppet government was created during the war, even before the Warsaw Uprising, the Polish leaders in exile were pressured with threats by the Allies to join it, most of them refused. Those who didn't refuse were later killed, imprisoned, or forced to flee Poland by the communists.
    The "reforming" decision was taken in 1943.
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Poland exists at least from 966.
     
  20. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    You didn't say why, so it's hard to dispute it.

    Poland would be 50% smaller. Unable to feed herself, defend, and survive.
    Like Britain without South West, West Midlands, North West, North East.

    What are you going to do with the people living in the other 50%? About ten million of them?
    Because most of them will be hell-bent to move to Poland. Are you going to build container cities for them? Give them jobs?
    It wasn't only Poles. After the 1921 peace, from the territories Poland lost to the USSR, about million Ukrainians and Belarusians moved to Poland, despite the fact the Soviets made it very hard.

    All that because it looks nice on the map.

    There wasn't any grisly destiny. You haven't shown any grisliness yet.
    As I said - in the end, the Polish German were more free in Poland, than the Germans in Germany.

    What about the Jews? Are you going once again claim the Poles were going deported them all to Madagascar?
    Do you know any country in the thirties which would offer a Polish Jew better life than in Poland?
     

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