Could Poland have fought for Germany in 1939 or was Russia a better option?

... I'm glad it came back up!

There may have been short term mutual advantages for the Poles had they continued to support Hitler in his endeavours. While the Soviets had made threats, the Germans made the Poles an offer, and with good reason. Given the tragedy which was Poland during the war and afterwards, it's easy to overlook Poland's pre-war actions, a time when Poland’s support figured larger in Hitler's plans than his Italian ally did.


It’s important to remember that Poland’s Nationalist Sanacja Government considered Poland a major player, if not on the world stage then certainly that of Europe, wandering between Germany and Soviet Russia, i.e. Soviet–Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1932 and the German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934, but not siding with one against the other. The Poles (and Hungarians for that matter) actually supported Hitler in the endeavours which led to Munich, consider Czechoslovakia:

Alliance wise Czechoslovakia seemed solid on paper; the mutual defence alliance with France 1925, the alliance with the USSR 1935, but which only operated if France acted first, and the “Little Entente” with Romania and Yugoslavia to counter the Hungarians. Czechoslovakian President Edvard Benes considered the Soviets virtually worthless, he was a “Westerner”, owed the existence of his country to the Western victors of WW1, plus the Spanish Civil War showed everyone what to expect if “Democracy” was to be defended with Soviet backing. Also while historically France and to a lesser degree Britain had courted Russia to guard the East as a second front in alliance, the Russians had lost their part in WW1, Poland existed and in its stead Poland was courted to fill the void left by the Russians/Soviets.

For their part the Poles wanted Teschen (Czech Tesin, Polish Cieszyn) a former Duchy of some 850 sq mi., Teschen was part of Silesia, had been part of Bohemia for hundreds of years but had been part of Austria until 1918. Both Poland and Czechoslovakia claimed Teschen on ethnic grounds. After World War I, Versailles Treaty ramifications divided Teschen, giving the western section, including the coal rich industrial Karviná basin, to Czechoslovakia and the eastern agricultural section to Poland. Poland, feeling that they got the bum end of the steer, continued to claim the Czech section.

At Munich, Hitler also supported Polish and Hungarian demands on Czechoslovakia. The Poles figured hugely in the Munich settlement behind the scenes. It was their attitude that prevented the Soviets from being taken seriously as being able to give any sort of aid, then later they figured in the prevention of a British-French-Soviet Alliance to counter Hitler. By Benes’ own account it was the Polish ultimatum to Czechoslovakia demanding the return of Tesin that led him to abandon any idea of resisting the Munich settlement.

The Germans occupied Czech Sudetenland on Oct. 5th, the Poles took Czech Tesin the same day. The Vienna awards agreements followed that of Munich; Nov. 1938- Aug. 1940. In Nov. 1938 Hungary got the southern sections of Slovakia and Ruthenia, Slovakia remaining a German vassal state. Germany took what was left i.e. Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939, then as a side show in 1940 Hungary got Transylvania from Romania.


In short, both the Poles and Hungarians were more than willing to join Hitler and share in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. The Poles for their part put both France and the USSR in very awkward positions as both also had treaty obligations to the Czechs, in the process relying on the Soviet Polish Non-Aggression treaty, and straining the treaty with France hugely in Germany’s favour. Poland’s been referred to as “Hitler’s Jackal”, Churchill referred to Poland’s “hyena appetite” over Czechoslovakia, and the irony of the Polish guarantee 6 months later.


Now, with Czechoslovakia carved, Poland also had outstanding political/territorial issues with the Ukraine that Hitler could use in continued negotiations, negotiations over Danzig and contact with East Prussia. A “corridor through the corridor” was possible, Danzig had been German, wasn’t Polish, and the Poles had built the port of Gdynia down the road that they could actually control; Poland didn’t need Danzig, but Danzig needed the Poland. Economic interests could be safeguarded, an arrangement could be worked out; Hitler wanted a peaceful settlement, with Poland more firmly bound to Germany.

In Oct 1938 Ribbentrop met Polish Ambassador Josef Lipski, again in Nov., in January 1939 Hitler met with Beck, then Ribbentrop with Beck in Feb. In exchange for Danzig, a road and railway through to East Prussia, the corridor would remain Polish, the German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact would be extended as well as a “joint policy towards Russia on the basis of the Anti-Comintern Pact” (not an invitation to join the Axis) in regards to Polish claims on the Ukraine was on the table. This wasn’t new, Goring who’d been assigned the role of being Poland’s buddy, had been saying much the same for 5 years.

Events continued in Eastern Europe, but for all intents and purposes, the Poles refused, they had belittled the Czechs for their weakness, they could and would stand fast. Hitler had expected some difficulties, he couldn’t wait forever, but then something completely unexpected happened – the British stuck their noses in his business with Poland by offering to “lend the Polish Government all the support in their power”, the French went along, then they dragged Romania and Greece into it! Hitler wouldn’t stand for encirclement or intimidation, he cut the agreements he had with both, but he was angrier at Britain than he was with Poland, and still welcomed a deal with the latter. Instead he ended up with a deal of sorts with Stalin, war would result, and Poland's rebuff would cost her dearly.


Poland's situation may well have ended up much like that of Hungary or Romania, had they reached agreement with Germany. I think it was AJP Taylor who compared the effectiveness of Polish & Czechoslovak government dealings with Hitler, by their military and civilian deaths in the war – interesting comparison when you think about it …


Pssst, Pilsudski died in 1935.

 

It is very relevent since just about everyone in Poland knew what happaned in Katyn all throughout the war, the 50's, the 60's the 70's the 80's the 90's, and its only now that Russian admitted to their crimes. And I'm pretty sure that no one believed the Russian version from the begining.

 

I agree, but only if you take the Scorpions "rock you like a hurricane" out of it.

 

Some Poles knew about Katyn from the start, but I believe Sloniskp meant the Poles could not choose who to side with in 1939 while evoking Katyn, since the Katyn massacre hadn't happened yet..

 

Yes, true that Katyn did not happen in 1939 and Poles would not have been able to chose for or against Russia based on Katyn. However it is false to say "as the truth behind the crime came out only a decade ago". The truth was out in 1943, when the Germans invited the Intern. Red Cross to perform forensics.

 

Yes, but not many would listen to the German version in occupied Poland, when survive was the only important thing. It is was hidden to the world and Poles themselves after 1945. Epitaphs were erased from graves, documents destroyed, pictures confiscated and those who opened their mouth were arrested by the Communists. There was even a propaganda film made by the Soviets with falsified dates and testimonies.

 

True and true, but believe me, we (the Poles) all knew.

 

I don't believe the truth about Katyn was common knowledge in Poland until the end of the cold war, this comes from personal experience, I had a Polish girl in my class in high school (1970-74) and we had many a heated discussion about it (no Internet then so the Red Cross report was beyond my reach then), I would be very inerested in any Polish members to tell us about when and how they came to know about it.

 

Yes Skipper, but it was known to the Polish since it had happened, and thats not a good base for being friend with Russia.
And the other point is that it wasn´t very healthy to talk about it after the war, Sloniksp.

 

As you wish.

They did not teach about Katyn at schools at that time (at least they didn't teach that Soviets did it - if anything, they said that Germans did it instead).

Of course there might have been some "honest" teachers, who would like to tell the truth to their students (even though risking their job and career).

So those who were born after the war or were very young during the war - like your girl - likely didn't know anything, unless they were told about this by parents (and from experience I know that adults were not very likely to talk about 1939 - 1945 to their children at that time - one could go to prison if they told such things to their children and children turned out to be too talkative) or by teachers - which was also unlikely. In history textbooks there was nothing or just a short mention of word "Katyn".

However, those who were adult during WW2 and remembered it, knew what really happened at Katyn (at least most of them).

They just didn't speak about this in public, and rarely in private as well.

In Polish history books from that time Katyn was also rather not present.

In Polish history books about the Polish Campaign of 1939 from that time, there is very little about the Soviet invasion as well (and usually the chapter before the Soviet invasion is titled "the collapse of the Polish statehood: 15 - 16 September", or something like this - to please the Soviet historiography - and the chapter about the invasion itself says about "Soviet entry" and thoroughly explains its "real" reasons - i.e. protecting Ukrainian & Belarusian minorities as well as "saving" Polish citizens from Nazi occupation and their own government, which caused the defeat - while not saying anything about actual military operations and combats and that there was any resistance).

But considering that "friendship with the Soviet Union" was one of constitutional rules of the People's Republic of Poland - this is not surprising.

 

And also many confuse German history with history of Prussia (which is just one of many German states and happened to dominate them all at some point).

Especially German history before the raise of Prussia is great (and certainly there is much less militarism & aggression in it than in Prussian history).

 

I can give you a little bit of personal expierance, allthough I cant speak for the 70's as I was too young, but I can for the 80's. Katyn was no secret, however we didn't talk about it every day, simply every one knew and there was no point. But no one was affraid to talk about anti-soviet topics amongst family and friends. Poland was not as secretive,full of spies, full of fear, etc, as many think (at least from my prespective). At least in the 80's, I remember writing on my school walls "f--k ZOMO". Zomo being the miiltary police, and yes my poor mom got a visit, but was told that I really shouldnt be doing that, no arrest or anything else. As far as books, I learned about the Polish Bolshevik war in the US. I also learned about the Polish Russian war of 1612 and others, where Poland defeated Russia, in the US. All those Polish victories were conveniently omitted.

 

Hi Tom,

My post regarding the relevancy of Khatyn was just as Skip put it, it hadn't happened yet. As for the truth, until the Soviets finally admitted to the crime not very many (if any) knew for sure. The Nazis weren't exactly a reliable source especially when speaking of crimes committed

 

Hello Sloniksp,

Yes, the Nazis were not the most reliable source of info regarding crimes against humanity. Funny how when they discovered crimes comitted by others, they so quickly called in the Inter. Red Cross. Oddly they didn't invite the Red Cross to Auswitch.

 

But would Hitler have accepted Polish help? He took people from Poland, but not Poles. 14th Waffen SS for example. There were Slovaks and Ukrainians as well as a host of Eastern Europeans (esp. after 43) but zero Poles. Even at the desperation point none, at a time he was willing to let Russian POW's into the SS. It seems he had a special hatred beyond all bounds.

 

It all depends what your definition of poles and Ukrainians is. As soon as Hitler annexed large parts of Poland into the Reich their inhabitants became German and many served in the German army becuase they were incorporated as German nationals. When some of these men were captured after D-Day, they claimed they had been incorporated by force (it was hard to verify those who were forced or not) and were often released earlier and some swithed sides when they could. A single list at a German cemetery will give you an idea of the amount of ethnic poles who served in the Wehrmacht. Many of those came from Upper Silesia, Galicia, West Prussia or the General Government territories.

As to Ukranians from Galicia and the Lemberg area , this territory was Austo-Hungarian until 1919 and Polish until 1939 so when Galicians joined the German army it wasn't easy to define their exact origin but since both the Rusisan and the German annexions had not been recognized by international treaties , the inhabitants were technically poles until 1945 at least fro man allied point of view. Of course the Germans considered them as Volksdeutsche and their was even a galician SS unit set up .

 

... Hitler liked Poles, pre-war - hard to believe perhaps given his actions during the war. Truly Anti-Pole Germans were those from the North-East; Prussians, Pomeranians, Silesians etc., they spoke the loudest over Versailles, Danzig & The Corridor and Hitler felt the need to appease them. Remember, Hitler was Austrian, he preferred Poles over Italians, but hated to be rebuffed by anyone.

 

Compared to other occupied countries Poland had little or no collaboration and rather high mortality among civilians. Before the war there were 800.000 Polish citizens declared as Germans. During the war the number has increased to about 3.000.000. I don't know whether that was an effect of germanization or the number of pre-war Polish Germans wasn't accurate. During the War, involuntary exodus of the Germans in Poland includes resettlement of 30.000 during 1939-1944 and flight of 500.000 between 1944 and 1946. I am aware of the obvious mismatch between the numbers because I use two different sources.

Besides, during the WWII 31.000.000 inhabitants of Central and Eastern Europe relocated from their homes. Maybe this reveals the reasons for the absence of collaborationists in Poland.

In my view, the lack of interest for collaboration was mutual.

 

I think the main reasons where fairly simple. The Germans invaded Poland and were Polands enenmy. Poles had nothing to gain by helping Hitler (yes, obvious on a case be case bases there where many that did). Anyone that did, was or would be "screwed" by Hitler in the long run. Hitler had no interest in helping others, just himself through others. I think most Poles realized that early on. And I think that Hitler also realized that Poles were not to be trusted or bargained with. Any nation whish was over 800 years old and then gets ripped apart by empires for over 120 years and then tastes freedom and liberation again, is not going to cooparate with an invader.

 

Is this a joke or fiction?