Dieppe?

The worth of the operation is difficult to guage. Considering that the seized components apparently were of little value save to reveal that the Germans were NOT ahead of the allies in that particular area, I'd have to reitterate my opinion that it was something of a waste.
Still, there were apparently SOME lessons learned about the techniques necessary to achieve a large scale landing which would be utilized at D-day.
Call it an expensive gathering of data...

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Novus Ordo Seclorum

 

Dieppe was not only a military assault.

One purpose (perhaps the main purpose) was to provide cover for covert operations. Several different incursions were made or attempted by various secret organisations. Ian Fleming was on such a mission but his raid was called off.
The attempt to capture parts of a radar installation also failed, however that mission was a total success. Unable to enter the radar station, the operative cut the telephone line , forcing the German operator to send messages by radio in clear.
The information gained by British Intelligence from this was much more valuable than any hardware might have been.

Also note that the original planning had not been based on accurate information and that the operation had not been kept secret, lessons that were both learned in time for D-Day. Thus, the Germans were not only prepared for the attack (the Canadians found mortar ranging pegs on the beach from the previous morning's prcatice) but they were also able to feed the British dummy information through trecherous French agents.

Also, this was not only a British attempt to waste Canadian soldiers. The Canadians had been hounding the High Command for a mission, any mission, for two years.
Planning was not perfect, far from it, but this was the first such amphibious assault and lessons needed to be learned. One good lesson was the need for HE ammo for the 6pdr guns. Of course many other valuable lessons were learned including the need for the 'Funny' tanks which were used in D-Day on every beach but Omaha and look what happened there!
Dieppe was not only a ground action, but also an aerial combat on a scale which had never been seen before. IIRC (and I probably do not - acurately) the Allied airforces provided over 70 squadrons of fighters which fought continuously all during the assault against the Luftwaffe.

Certainly, the operation was a disater but it was not a waste.

 

Well written Maj.D. Thanks for the info. I was not aware that the Allies had had such a huge scale arial operation for this raid. This will give me something else to start studying.

 

For more information on Dieppe, see:
http://www.harrypalmergallery.ab.ca/galwardieppe/galwardieppe.html

 

Thanks for the link Roland. Now the place is a major tourist attracting resort, would have never guessed.

I sure hope that younger generations will not forget what happened there-if they are even being tought it now days?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Destruction: Dieppe was not only a military assault. One purpose (perhaps the main purpose) was to provide cover for covert operations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I could be totally wrong...but i thought i saw on the history channel that it was the opposite? It was not really an invasion designed to take and hold ground...but it was an assault...whenever you use ground troops it won't be "covert" I thought it was a hit and run attack in which the ground troops were supported by the British Commandoes. Which had specific goals of taking out key defense positions...but the plans fell through because only one of the Commando units were able to get to the beach...the other was intercepted by E-boats. So thus they were pushed back because the guns that one commando group were to neutralize was not hit. So thus caused considerable problems. It seemed that the Canadien ground units had goals of getting some sort of intelligence while the special forces commandoes were to make sure they get ashore. At least that was my take it's alittle hazy though LOL

 

The strategic goals of Operation Jubilee, the Dieppe raid were:
1) Gain experience in future amphibious operations planned in Europe.
2) take pressure off of Russia by forcing the Germans to pull back troops to guard against future attacks.
3) bring the Luftwaffe out to play. The Brits figured they could mortally wound the Luftwaffe on the western front if they could force it to fight a pitched battle. As the British alone were outproducing the Germans in aircraft, and most German planes were being sent to the east front, the RAF could trade 2 for 1 and still come out on top. This could open the way for Allied air superiority and make the strategic bombing campaign into a much larger factor in the war.
Only one objective was met.
1) Success! they gained a huge amount of info which allowed them to pull off Overlord. Knowlegde learned about Inter service communication, handling of landings, testing of landing craft, and many other things paid huge dividends during Overlord.
2) Failure!! The actual landing was such an utter failure it actually convinced OKH to send MORE troops to the East Front. This eventually paid off though, as many troops manning the Atlantik Wall were of very poor quality.
3) Failure!! The air battle that the RAF hoped for happened. Over 500 RAF aircraft and over 300 Luftwaffe aircraft took place in the fight, at one time 150 aircraft were battling at once over a 11 mile stretch of beach. At the end of the day 106 RAF aircraft were lost, 48 Luftwaffe. The RAF only lost a few more aircraft than their considered succes ratio, but it was the pilots that hurt. The hasty retreat the Allies made caused the loss of almost 80 pilots, the Germans recovered all but 12.

[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: talleyrand ]

 

The Dieppe raid was doomed from the start. One of the main problems with the RAF was that they were far from there bases and the Germans fighters were near theirs. That ment that the the RAF couldn't fight as long as the germans because of the fuel used to get there. I'm not sure what role german AA guns had with the outcome of the air battle, because I think a good of amount of the air battle took place over the channel.

The Germans also had more firepower during the raid. Because for some reason I can't remember the british wouldn't allow any ships bigger then a destroyer in the channel because of the losses during the evacuation of Dunkirk. I think the Germans even manged to sink one destroyer. Thats what little I have to say about Dieppe, I'd write more but I don't have the time.

 

I was about to write the same question "why did Dieppe happen?" when I stumbled across all this. Very interesting.

At the end of the day this just reinforces my view that the British never actually fought a major successful action during the war that was well-planned and well-executed against an enemy who was equally well-prepared.

El Alamein doesn't count because Rommel wasn't present.

Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating again. I'll probably be bombarded with dozens of glorious British victories like Caen (taken weeks behind schedule), Singapore and Arnhem.

 

The RAF aircraft as a whole had longer ranges than their Luftwaffe counterparts during Dieppe. Most of the RAF aircraft were moved up to forward airfields in England, closer than many of the Luftwaffe aircraft were then based.
The RN had cruisers and other big gunboats in Jubilee. The DD's have shallower drafts which allowed them to steam closer to shore. Also, many DD despite danger to themselves operated dangerously close to shore heroicly trying to support the landings. The larger ships were miles out to sea, for the most part. It was lack of communication, and loss of FO's that prevented the larger guns from helping as much as they could.
The British were strongarmed into Jubilee by the US. It really wasnt their party.

 

I've never heard of the U.S presuring the British into Dieppe. Could you tell me more about that?

 

The US wanted an actual invasion of France in '42. Dieppe was a compromise against the better judgement of the British. Some still float a conspiracy theory that Churchill flubbed Dieppe on purpose to get an immediate invasion of Europe off American minds.

 

Which Americans wanted the invasion in 42, were they military or politicians?

 

both. Many in the US were obsessed with taking the pressure off of Uncle Joe, and thought they could easily invade France. The failure at Dieppe "put the fear o' god in em".

 

That would have been one of the dumbest things to invade in 42.

 

I am not sure about the whole press ganging colonials issue, Canadians were all volunteers, same applies for Australians I think, Indian troops were volunteers for sure and they were actualy under more pressure not to join from nationalist movements. As for Gurkhas, they are Nepalese and are most definatly volunteers. They see it as an honour to be accepted into the regiment and they are to this day the finest infantry (that doesnt hold 'special forces' status) in the British army. Interestingly enough they were formed after a battle with the Gurkah people (I am not sure if that is their real name, they are a tribe in Nepal and they speak Gurkahli). The British lost but the Gurkah leader was so impressed by the performance of our troops that he gave a unit of his men to the British. By the way did you know that it was Lord Mountbatten who wanted the 1st SSB formed and that originaly the No.3 command were to be known as the first 'Special Service Brigade' but when the order was issued Lt. Col John Durnford-Slater sent a reply basically saying 'I will not lead any unit with the letters SS in its title'.

As for dieppe, that there were 2 command units involved, No.3 and No.4. They were charged with taking the artillery batteries either side of the town. I am not sure how much of a success the operation was as I do not know much about it, but I do believe it was a waste. Then again, name one war that wasnt?

 

The Australian units involved in Dieppe wanted some action, any action as they had spent over a year in Britain sitting on their thumbs. They were happy to go.
Operation Jubilee went bad earlier than the failed attempt to take all the shore batteries. They were spotted in the Channel by German boats earlier. It was just a huge mess.

 

operation jubilee <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It was just a huge mess. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> you are so right it was just one huge mess. when it comes down to it operation jubilee was just plan and simply a bad idea and a bad plan.
I wouldnt say it failed because the shore batteries wernt silenced, indeed no.4 commandos (under the just billiant Lord Lovat)at orange beach had the most Splendiferous affair and their raid went down as the watermark for all commando raids thereafter. the other commado group did run into a german convoy about to enter dieppe which threw the raid into chaous and most the boats turn bach other wise that raid wounld have probably been sucessfull too.

R u sure there was a australian unit involved, which one?

The lessions learnt at dieppe were very dearly learnt and so very carefully absorbed amougst other things one of the major thing it taught was when invading for real up to then a port was considered a absolute neccesity there after it was considered a bad idea. However the raid covinced hitler that when the real invasion came it would come through a port... so he strenghtened the port defences, he should have listened to von Rundstedt when he said 'they will not do it like this a second time'
I think that dieppe happening when it did how it did saved the allies from a later dieppe and possibly one much worse at the real invasion this does not make the lose of life a good thing but as montgomery said 'D-Day was won on the beaches of dieppe' which only serves as a greats tribute to the canadians and others who died there.
Another thing it did is summed up by the quote of Lt frobes of west, royal regiment of canada ' We were sent to the beaches to rove to our people, the americans and the russians that a sewcond front just wasnt on. And we proved it' and my god how they did prove it

 

humm on the issue of sea power the RN only let destroyer and small insect class gunboats in none of them had any thing bigger than a 4in th RN understandably woulnd use battleships but should have at least give at least one cruiser and the cinc of the canadian2nd division(the one used) think his name was roberts didnt want the bombing of the town before hand cos of obstructing tanks or some reason like that another big mistake. Roberts is reported have to of said in a briefing it would 'be a piece of cake' the poor man was thereafter sent i piece of cake in the mail every dieppe anniversary till his death <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It really wasnt their party. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> so right it want britain party.
the military objective were to destory numerous coastal batteries a airfeild and other buildings thought to be hq of varios thins also to capertuer 40 german invasion barges and a radar station.

 

I meant to say Canadians, dont know why I typed Australian