Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

HELP for Friedrich's novel...

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Friedrich, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. TA152

    TA152 Ace

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,423
    Likes Received:
    120
    All of the explainions help out except for the name Jolly. I like the name Hartmann, but maybe something more gothic sounding would work for the novel but I am biased toward gothic type stuff. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,941
    Likes Received:
    995
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    Quite alot has been already discussed...

    Anyway, some thoughts as I had read the story twice ( morning and evening ) and did other things in mean while so I got some distance to the story:

    1. Yep, the Parkinson and Alzheimer together sound just too much. How about war stress syndrome or something like that. It could give the character some chance of getting better again, and readers would like to think so, I think.

    2. Too many bosses´lives saved . How about a big favour or black mailing with the other guy. I´d like to see someone black mail Himmler.

    3. I guess you have to go slow with the political scene as otherwise many will "fall of the carriage" if there´s too much changes without explanation..

    4."dismissed with honours from the SS "...how about some tragedy and kicked out of SS (?) Eicke for example sent the guys who wanted out of the SS into camps...

    5. I liked TA 152`s idea of Marlene Dietrich playing a part!

    6. Add many little details and stories into the story as I myself like those kinda books very much. I bet there´s a whole lot of jokes and gossips of the time you can add.

    Otherwise the story does "flow", I think.

    ;)

    PS. BTW, thanx for the Field Marshal pics you sent by e-mail!
     
  3. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    19,289
    Likes Received:
    2,280
    Location:
    Stirling, Scotland
    Freddie,
    Apologies for misreading Kastre's bio mate.
    Can't wait to read the next part!

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  4. Heartland

    Heartland Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    3
    But NOT TWO HIGH-RANKING OFFICERS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GREATEST BATTLES IN HISTORY. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Oh no, now you've gone done it. The novel WILL BE RELEASED IN ALL-CAPS! THAT SHOULD BE A FIRST! :eek:


    Anyways, initial impressions...

    I tend to agree with quite a few of the previous posters, the story flows well on most accounts. A couple of points in no particular order regarding the story or comments to the story:

    1. Slight over-use of the save-the-boss plot.


    2. Names names names:
    And what about if his grandfather is a Syrian-Lebanese? —though he dosn't seem Arab at all.</font>[/QUOTE]Alternatively, have him named something suitably Austrian-sounding, and then aquire the "Omar" as a nickname due to the heritage mentioned above, during officer school. Could start out as a bit of stigma, and then turn into a cherished nickname worn with pride and used by everyone.

    von Jolly doesn't work for me either, especially when I read the summary in English! :D To put the whole weight of responsibility and family tradition on the poor guy, it just seems more appropriate with a long, distingushed, aristocratic name.


    3. The homosexual parents with seven kids. I guess if the story really needs it in order to portray various events later, but to me it seems slightly over-zealous for just "keeping up appearances" and tradition. Don't get me wrong here, I like the twist and it can certainly work, just something to look closely at so it doesn't come across as a constructed plot-device. It has plenty of potential.

    More to come as things pop up...
     
  5. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2000
    Messages:
    8,378
    Likes Received:
    883
    Location:
    Jefferson, OH
    Overall looks good. I agree about the names. Changing some of them would keep the reader more focused.

    Storyline looks fine. There are some loose ends but you have explained them in a later response. Just have to figure out a way to get it into the storyline.


    There was a book called "Winter" by Len Deighton. Very good book about a Berlin family with a lot of intrigue.

    I recommend reading it and perhaps gives you some idea on tying in the explainations. I look forward to reading the final product. I like intrigue

    Good luck my friend.
     
  6. DUCE

    DUCE Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd have to agree PzJgr...I own the book and find it to be an excelent read. I've read it two times in the last 6 months :D .

    Friedrich I'd definately recommend you read it...it can only help!

    DUCE
     
  7. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    5,945
    Likes Received:
    758
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    Well Friedrich, a few comments from an historical perspective:

    First, it is extremely (I want to emphsize that)unlikely that your main character, Baron von Jolly would have risen above the rank of Oberst. He is not career Heer being an industrialist. Look at the list of Field Marshalls that the Wehrmacht had and you find all are career soldiers.
    Since you also have him as a homosexual / bisexual who is at least known to be such this would have precluded his promotion to general almost certainly. While the Heer / Wehrmacht didn't condem such behavior they certainly didn't condone it. The usual attitude was along the lines of "Yes, he's a homosexual but, he isn't going anywhere fast..." Given his position in German society, it is likely his sexual proclivities would have been ignored in any case so the file ploy is unnecessary (look at Dirlewanger / Berger in the SS for example). Concentration camps were for common deviants not rich, politically connected and, important ones.....
    Last, you have him suffering from several debilitating diseases towards the end of the war. Again, the Wehrmacht upheld fairly good standards even late in the war on officer selection. The commander of the 462nd VG division at Metz was relieved simply on the basis of age and "lack of fighting spirit." He was simply too old and tired to be commanding a combat unit so he was replaced.
    His anti-nazi stance would also preclude his rise to general where politics play a significant role in career development and, not just in the German military structure. Of course, I have to question why someone so well placed in the business / industrial community would even wish to be commissioned. It would make more since that he remained in charge of his business interests and dealt with Speer and Todt rather than accept a commission where at best he was going to end up a regimental commander or staff officer in some rather obscure post.
    As to Reit, there is really no need to resort to the use of the "saved Hitler's life, Göring's life" thing. The SS could have recruited him and, may have even found him a desirable candidate as service was voluntary and Germans living abroad were a good source of recruitment that the Wehrmacht / Heer couldn't touch pre-war.
    Anyway, these are just historical notes that would add accuracy. The important thing is, is it a good read?
     
  8. volkbert

    volkbert Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    1
    Writing a novel which describes that period is indeed a large and interesting project! I would include a part about a party rally. The theme of the 1936 party rally was the Anschluss of Austria. This would be an interesting rally for Omar.

    I agree with the other about the name Jolly. It sounds flimsy. A normal German name is better imo.

    I wonder if Baron von Jolly could have such a high rank in the army when his books are burnt by the nazis.

    Are you planning to give Omar a role in the Kristallnacht?
     
  9. TA152

    TA152 Ace

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,423
    Likes Received:
    120
    Do you have a title for your book ? A good title is very important I think.
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    371
    Location:
    Portugal
    So per Mr. Ex-Banana Man request, here are my views on this matter. I know others have commented on this, but I did not read their opinions in order to avoid being influenced. Therefore I may be repeating what others have said. My comments will be prefixed "Za".

    I'm afraid this plot lacks consistency and credibility. You have to remove a lot of chrome and certainly make it more plausible. Try and make v.J. a little more solid, or how would he make it fo FM?

    What is your main point, bring to light the suffering of a kind and sensitive character surrounded by the brutishness of the régime?

    I suggest you read others, like the ones you mention (forget Freud!), plus Len Deighton, especially "SS-GB" and "Bomber". Try and feel the oppressive atmosphere of the times.

    Please do not be offended if I sound sarcastic at times...

    In any case if you do make the plot more believable, more "in period", I suppose this could be interesting.

    Cheers,
    Miguel
    ____________________________________

    "Friedrich Baron von Jolly"

    Za - Funny name, but he could be of Huguenot extraction, like Adolf Galland. Not impossible, I remember a Jolly name in the Austrian army in the 18th C, IIRC.

    "... has just been promoted to field marshal... Alzheimer and Parkinson deceases..."

    Za - Tall order! How old did you say he was? Would simple exhaustion be enough? High blood tension?

    " Cologne in early February 1934."

    Za - right.

    "The main character —as I said— is Friedrich von Jolly, a nobleman —a baron—, a very rich businessman and a very famous and respected writer. "

    Za - Is he a businessman or a career officer to become a FM later?

    "He’s then forty-eight"

    Za - In 1945 he's 48? Young for a FM and a rich businessman to boot! How could he combine both in such a short time?

    "has written many novels and many other historical works —in a Churchill style— of many volumes in French and German. "

    Za - and a prolific writer too? When did he sleep?

    "Despite his obvious literary genius, he’s not held in high regard by the new régime; maybe as much as Mann, Freud, Zweig or Remarque. "

    Za - What's he doing out of the concentration camp then? Don't make him a saint, think Schindler.

    "But he still was a nobleman, a powerful industrialist and an apolitical —even if completely anti-nazi— and reserved intellectual friend of President Von Hindenburg. "

    Za - Would Old FM Pres. v.H hang around with young writers in their 30's?

    " In 1930 he lost his wife, who died giving birth to his seventh son and this has altered his mind severely."

    Za - In 1930 he would be 33. Now we have a plutocrat - career officer - nobel prize winning writer - socialite - and sire of seven? No wonder he would be exahusted in 1945!

    " He now depended a lot on alcohol "

    Za - I would too :D

    "and was persuaded to get back into the Army because his professional and remarkable combat record: he won the Pour Le Mérite at Verdun."

    Za - at age 19/20 !

    " He does join the Army again and becomes a major and a battalion commander "

    Za - Back in the army in 1930 at the time of the 100,000 men Reichswehr. A major. Must have been his PLMerite and V.Hindenburg comnections!

    "The novel also starts when Von Jolly’s daughter: Anna is about to marry a thirty-four-year-old Bavarian man "

    Za - The novel is starting in 1934. Jolly would be 37. How old would the girl be? The guy simply is too young for all that, IMV.

    "named Viktor Kastre, who was a doctor in Physics, II lieutenant in the Army and a war veteran. "

    Za - I've seen stranger German names...

    "Mr. Kastre’s friend happens to be a handsome twenty-three-year-old Austrian who is part of Hitler’s bodyguards corps: the Leibstandarte SS ‘Adolf Hitler’. His name is Omar von Reit and is a highly decorated former member of the French Foreign Legion,"

    Za - Highly decorated FL at 23? With whom was he serving with, Beau Geste? Please drop the exaggeration.

    " who in a brief trip to Berlin he casually saved Adolf Hitler’s life during a fiction assassination attempt.

    Za - Deus ex machina. Thsi is like Hitler autographing Indiana Jones book in The Last Crusade!Why fiction, who dunnit?

    "In the second chapter I portray a party in a jazz nightclub in Cologne. "

    Za - ok, though I like Jazz :D

    "Then Omar meets Friedrich von Jolly, his favourite writer ever —he is a very talented poet himself— and finds out the tormented soul of a man, full of secrets and contradictions. He first has to bear Von Jolly’s rejection towards him —because he’s an SS officer— and Von Jolly’s fifteen-year-old son, Ferdinand, who rapidly falls in love with the young Omar. "

    Now a SS-Mann, former FL, decorated, poet, homosexual and paedophile!

    "Friedrich von Jolly has to bear how his highly acclaimed books are publicly removed from libraries and shops and burnt."

    Za - Wasn't he an army officer in Hindenburg's circle? Not consistent.

    "Then there’s the wedding of Viktor and Anna ... After the wedding Omar von Reit ... love of Elizabeth I and Philip II."

    Za - all right.

    "Then on the night of June 30th 1934 we see how the ‘hero’ of the novel, Omar becomes a cold-blooded murderer..."

    Za - ok.

    "In 1935 Omar von Reit saves the life of general Göring during a visit to a fabric"

    Za - 2nd life saving! S'ppose you mean a factory.

    "...He soon realises that if the SS Reichsführer finds out that Von Jolly has a lot of money ... helping Jews ... homosexual ... liaisons with Socialist Party ... hostile tendencies against régime"

    Za - Would Heydrich let a target like this simply have his file vanish? Remember von Fritsch?

    "Which he does, not before gently forcing Von Jolly to use his factories and firms exclusively for manufacturing Luftwaffe equipment and to give the party and the Luftwaffe millionaire ‘contributions’. Von Jolly sells his soul to Satan."

    Za - Ah, now this IS credible :cool:

    "In 1936 Omar finishes his officer training at Bad Tölz and is given by the Führer his former rank in the Legion: captain. But Omar is tired of SS environment: illiterate officers and men and nonsense ideology. He then is dismissed with honours from the SS and joins the Army as a captain and battalion commander, in one of the Army’s best regiments: Von Jolly’s."

    Za - Hey, how easily could you show disaffection, leave the LSSAH and walk over to Heer?

    "Here the two men finally know each other properly and not much time passes before they become secret lovers. In 1937 they both are going to travel all around Europe and Africa."

    Za - Heydrich, where are you when you're needed? Two serving officers going AWOL at the time of the armed forces expansion, intervention in the Spanish Civil War, the Munich Crisis, Anschluss etc?

    "Omar finally gets true love for the first time in his life and Friedrich is absolutely revitalised: he quits drinking, starts writing the best works of his career and is spiritually satisfied for the first time in his life."

    Za - Ah, l'amour :D

    "1938 sees a lot of political action and the two men have to stop their ‘honeymoon’ because of the international environment."

    Za - all right. Now, how does v.J. get to FM? He must have followe up an outstanding military career, then

    [ 15. February 2004, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,941
    Likes Received:
    995
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    I´ll be looking in my books for more "little details" to use but one such could be the "tale" that Heydrich had details on Himmler that he had a cousin who was jew(?) and the info was in Heydrich´s safe.

    As well there were rumours of Heydrich´s jewish ancestry, and even if this was "cleared", you could use it in some way...

    AFter all Thrid Reich based a lot on such black mail-counter black mail stuff...
     
  12. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6,548
    Likes Received:
    48
    *DP* [​IMG]

    [ 16. February 2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]
     
  13. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6,548
    Likes Received:
    48
    Thank you all guys for your sincere and mostly useful opinions. That’s exactly what I needed! [​IMG]

    Now, let’s explain clearly every detail.

    Again, I’m opened to suggestions to change the name Von Jolly for a German one. Shoot! ;)

    Parkinson’s out. Way-too much.

    Yes, I agree it may seem like an exaggeration and I think I’m going to supreme it. I think that only a good relation with general Göring might be enough for asking him that little favour of getting rid of a police file.

    I don’t think it’s necessary. Only a switch of armed branch is what Omar is going to do.

    I like this too. But you guys will have to help me since I know almost nothing about her except for her famous song, of her escaping to the US and being thought a nazi spy and her liking of women…

    I will, don’t worry about that!

    Hope you’re not being sarcastic! [​IMG]

    Very good suggestion, but I don’t think that just the normal name makes any difference. It is the same as Goebbels having a Jewish name —Joseph— or general Von Strachwitz a Greek one —Hyacinth…

    This is a very good remark and you may be right. I need to think more about this. The point is that Von Jolly was gay all his life and despite of that, he bred seven children. His wife doesn’t necessarily have to be gay… and here we can try to make the whole situation clearer… Suggestions anyone?

    Very, very welcomed and appreciated, T. A. Thanks a lot!

    About Von Jolly being an industrialist, here I’ll have to explain that he was very far from being a Thyseen, Krupp or Porsche. Throughout the story the reader realises that Von Jolly is not as successful as he seems. First, he was a very mediocre cadet and junior officer all the way until WWI —lowest notes, administrative incompetence and physical awkwardness… As a rich businessman he was just someone who inherited money and properties and chose a very, very capable administrator. In the story, Von Jolly is a terrible administrator and very irresponsible when spending money. However, his friend and administrator is a [an honest] genius and keeps everything in order for the little price of 30% of the incomes… Without him, the main character would have been living in the streets. That is why Von Jolly has the time to make many other things.

    Definitely. And we can say that Von Jolly was one too. Graduated from Kriegsschule Potsdam in 1907 and dismissed from the Army until 1919 after four years of very distinguished service in WWI. He then re-joined the Army in January 1934. But also all the 24 German field marshals of WWII had very different personalities and lives, therefore it is possible for this character to reach such a rank.

    Even if what you say is completely true, a very discreet homosexual officer was not necessarily denied of professional success. Look at colonel general Wernher von Fritch —a baron too— who, even if we don’t know for sure if he was a homosexual or not —having ever being married there were rumours for sure— rose to the highest rank in the German Army. If he was gay in reality he was very discreet during his entire life and it never proved an obstacle. Even in Great Britain —where the homophobic backgrounds were more— there we have some other very discreet gay officer —we don’t know for sure if he was gay or not, but there’s some partial evidence— who rose to a very high rank and became a ver well-known character in WWII…

    Thanks to the suggestions I’ve read here, there’s now only one decease which on its early stages is very hard to confuse with some other health problems and maybe not evident for not close persons. However, sick generals were not a rare thing in WWII. Rommel suffered a big number of deceases all throughout the desert campaign —due to bad sanitary conditions and exhaustion. During summer and autumn 1942 general Paulus was constantly attacked by dysentery and his superior, field marshal Von Bock had severe stomach ache since November 1941.

    Do not take me wrong, T. A. I am very grateful for your inputs and they have been very useful since I now can try to keep all those things more accurately.

    He was not an opened anti-nazi. And he rose exactly as did field marshal Von Witzleben, colonel generals Beck, Von Fritsch and Halder —all privately anti-nazi.

    Because he had plenty of spare time and not a very stable mood when he decided to re-join the Army. And the man kind of enjoyed his job after all. It kept him calmed and occupied —remember that he wasn’t now able to give lectures and publish books in Germany.

    I hope. But I think you’ll have to decide it when you read the whole thing.

    Of course I am going to include something like that, Richard. Omar, being part of the Leibstandarte obviously took part in parades. And in September 1934 I’m going to dedicate a whole chapter to the speeches, parades and this beautiful woman making a film of it… ;)

    With books burnt and him in the Army serving the Fatherland and not publishing more books… perhaps?

    Very important remark, Tank! No, I don’t have a title yet. But I hope you all could help me, since I’m really awful in titling…

    Not only of this man, but of the whole continent during those awful years. Thanks for the response anyways, Miguel!

    No, you misunderstood me here. He’s 48 in January 1934, and he is 59 in April 1945 when promoted to FM.

    Being not Jewish, rich, influential, mostly apolitical, good connected and not potentially harmful to nazism… However, having a lot of money out of Germany and maybe a couple of things in his early record do make him a criminal to the régime’s eyes. That’s why the file has to ban in some way.

    Certainly not. But what about noble, rich career officers in their 40s?

    The girl is 20 and her father’s 48.

    You’ve certainly not heard enough the FL. Resisting a couple thousand Riftians in the middle of the savage Rift War could make you rise from the ranks very quickly and earning you a Légion d’Honneur.

    The guy is visiting Berlin and finds a big crowd, the car with the just-appointed German chancellor passes by. A man besides him takes out a gun. Omar reacts and fights him and gets shot in the ass. Next thing he knows is that he’s talking to Adolf Hitler in the hospital about both’s hometown, Braunau.

    Everything is correct except for the last thing… Because he never puts a finger on the young Ferdinand —who was, by the way, the one who started all!

    Ok, there will be NO 2nd life changing. He’ll just be friends with Göring. And yes, factory.

    If Göring orders it. YES!

    What do you mean by this?

    Of course they’ll have an eye on them. But not deep enough for Heydrich finding something interesting.

    By the end of the first part he was a major general. In the next six years he made some quite outstanding things to have become FM in April 1945. But you’ll have to wait until the second part’s ready!

    And what about field marshal Erhard Milch, Kai? Milch’s father was Jewish. And Göring made Milch’s mother to sign a letter where she said that she had cheated on her Jewish husband with an Aryan man… :rolleyes:

    Again, thanks all! More info to come.
     
  14. Stevin

    Stevin Ace

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,883
    Likes Received:
    26
    Fried!

    With this rate of respons I can't keep up!!!!
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    371
    Location:
    Portugal
    You're right, the III Reich was crammed full of inconsistencies. Maybe you can play around with this.

    This paying devil's advocate business is fun. When do we get the details on von Jolly's active career? [​IMG]

    Cheers,
     
  16. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2000
    Messages:
    8,378
    Likes Received:
    883
    Location:
    Jefferson, OH
    Lets remember that this is fiction and how would interesting would a book be if it was totally historically accurate.....it would be predictable. I like Friedrich's spin on this..albeit a little much but the story line makes it interesting.

    All fits fine with the exception of an industrialist going into the armee. Every country's industrialists always stayed at home and got richer along with their kids. Maybe come up with an interesting storyline to back it up.
     
  17. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6,548
    Likes Received:
    48
    OK, Stevin. I'll slow down. I'm sorry. [​IMG]

    Ike, he didn't work as an industrialist. He had a friend and administrator who did all the work for him. He just signed papers and enjoyed 70% of the royalties... That's why he had time enough to work as an Army officer.

    Za, thanks for the response. That's precisely what I am going to use. That's why the III Reich is such a good place for fictional stories. Within such a chaos, so many exceptions and messed up legislation and rules... :rolleyes:
     
  18. jpatterson

    jpatterson Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can echo the sentiments on the name thing, needs to be more Germanic sounding.

    This is just the type of book I like to read. Have you ever read a book called "Winter" by Len Deighton? If not you should check it out.

    The only thing that sort of bothered me that no one else mentioned was the age of the Foriegn Legionaire/SS man. I think he should be a bit older than 23.

    Let us all know when it is finished and in print so we can give it a proper read!

    Later
     
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    371
    Location:
    Portugal
    I have no quarrel with von Jolly's name. As I said, he could be from a 17th. C. Huguenot family, 18th C. Ancien Régime émigré, or more simply coming from Elsass or Lothringen (Alsace or Lorraine depending on point of view [​IMG] ) Plenty of possibilities here. There was, for instance, a General von der Chevallerie, who commanded 1-Armee Oberkommando in France in 1944. German sounding?

    For more on German names see http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/elpg/elpg06.htm (though referring to Pennsylvania Germans!)
     
  20. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2000
    Messages:
    8,378
    Likes Received:
    883
    Location:
    Jefferson, OH
    Ok. Blame my dyslexia in my brain. ;)
     

Share This Page