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Historian Concludes "Likely" Finnish Involvement in Atrocities

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by KJ Jr, Feb 15, 2019.

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  1. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    PhD? or?
     
  2. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I really don't know why the Jews are hated everywhere on this planet so fiercely. That's a strange phenomenon but digging old graves doesn't seem to be the right way to improve popularity. Perhaps better treatment of Palestinians would help, return of invaded Arab territories, admission of crimes Israel has committed etc. That's the way to follow, in my humble opinion. More contrition, more modesty and less ancient grudges would help them to improve perception of Jews.
     
  3. Black6

    Black6 Member

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    Unfortunately it is definitely on the rise and completely dependent upon the internet. It isn't so much the usual hate groups and organizations, they are actually in decline in numbers, "popularity", etc. The new ant-Semites/deniers are mostly conspiracy driven and a direct product of the cyber age. I've been studying this for about 3 years now and the clear answer to all this ground swelling of "revisionists" comes from modern psychology and not from any historian. Most of the young denier nation out there are conspiracy theorists who uncritically subscribe to many other conspiracies, to include 9/11 "Truthers", believers in the Bilderburg group, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc. What originally attracted me to dig into this was my interest in shooting holes in James Bacque's "Other Losses" whenever/wherever I found it. On youtube I found out that Holocaust deniers uncritically co-opt ANYTHING that will help support their views that the Holocaust is fake, Jews run the media, write the history and everyone else but deniers are sheep living in the Jewish run matrix and who haven't been "red pilled" yet. According to modern psychology, they have a definitive psychological profile and a big piece of it clearly makes them unable to self analyze or entertain any opposite views. Just one of the links I saved: The Surprising Power of Conspiracy Theories
     
  4. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Piled Higher and Deeper?
     
  5. Black6

    Black6 Member

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    If you guys would really like to see what is going on in denier nation's mind, visit youtube and look up one of their main pillars of belief: "Adolf Hitler, the greatest story never told" (laughable garbage propaganda, but read the comments). Also, look up Debunking The Holocaust Denial Documentary Judea Declares War on Germany – #2. Again, check out the comments, seems they don't like contrary views.
     
  6. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Should we first refrain from branding people with “Denier”, “Revisionist” or some other related propaganda Doublespeak. That’s immature tactics targeted towards prevention of serious conversation. I’m immune.

    Denial of victims of war is an ordinary nonsense: the number of victims is simply too large and indisputable. Many have suffered horribly, thats true. However, dividing victims into Worthy and Unworthy categories is really the utter dishonesty. Jews are just a small fraction of victims of Finnish perpetrators and yet Israelis insisted to treat them as a separate, chosen class, the uber-victims. Israel utilizes the H-word that imposes limits of victimhood to just a single ethnicity/religion group – Jews, with clear objective: to prevent any well founded criticism of Israeli policies in relation to Palestinians and all other Arabs. If you dare to blink they would accuse you of "Revisionism" which is in some countries prosecutable as a serious felony.

    I can advise them to let dead rest in peace and let Palestinians live in peace on their own invaded soil.

    Allegedly there are still 9 (nine) living Finnish SS men and Israelis have considered legal options to prosecute them. What could be the purpose of dumping half-dead 90+ year old man into the jail for something he “likely” has done more than a half of century ago. What else that could be except politics, dirty politics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    No. Indeed most certainly not. "Denier" is a perfectly adequate name for those who deny the Holocaust. "Revisionist" is more of a problem. It applies to both the best and the worst histories. Describing them as "propaganda Doboublespeak" is of questionable merit and hardly immature.
    And who here has done that? You are creating a straw man.
    That is so obviously fallacious I can hardly believe you stated it, but then a lot of the garbage you've been posting recently is of similar merit. Consider please that there had been much criticism even in Israel itself of some of those policies and some of it well founded. Furthermore those who initially publicized the Holocaust gave little or no thought to the as yet unfounded state of Israel.
    Revisionism is an old and honored tradition of historians. When new material comes to light it provokes a reassessment and possibly a revision of our understanding of history. Ltely it has also been applied to those who try to revise the historical narrative not on the basis of new information but by rejecting data, sometimes well known and documented data, that conflicts with their beliefs and politics. "Denial" in that sense is indeed a crime in some countries foremost among them Germany whose policies you were raving about not to many posts ago.
    If the Palestinians were willing to do the same a solution would have been arrived at long ago.
    What else could it be? Obviously a number of things justice, revenge, closure, setting an example for the future, ...
    As the saying goes "none are so blind as those who will not see".
     
  8. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I said:
    Allegedly there are still 9 (nine) living Finnish SS men and Israelis have considered legal options to prosecute them. What could be the purpose of dumping half-dead 90+ year old man into the jail for something he “likely” has done more than a half of century ago. What else that could be except politics, dirty politics.

    And here is an angry reply:

    I am born and educated as a Christian, more precisely as a faithful Catholic. Therefore your atavistic desire for revenge is strange to me, inconceivable. What an irreconcilable bloodthirsty grudge. I think I know more now.

    Today I have made a simple algebra: calculation of the percentage of Jews in my country. For some strange reason, the actual number is not publicly available, so I have used data for 2002 census. The result is slightly less than 0,005%. Statistically, there is a negligible likelihood I will ever meet a Jew in my entire life. Okay.

    Try to be more merciful towards other people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  9. Black6

    Black6 Member

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    Denier is short for Holocaust denier and an accurate label to describe those with anti-Semitic views who deny established fact. To repeat; Denial of established fact. The term "revisionist" is one adopted by Holocaust deniers and also people such as James Bacque, author of "Other Losses", or perhaps you are familiar with Viktor Suvorov (Rezun)?

    Why do you care so much for Palestinian rights and territory when on a WWII forum such as this a far more relevant case might be that of East Prussia, having been ethnically cleansed and erased from the map? Why focus on Israel? (almost a rhetorical question...lol).
     
  10. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Angry? No just a clear refutation of your claim that it could only be "dirty politics".
    ??? Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote or do you really not understand? You stated there could only be one reason "dirty politics" I merely indicated that there could be quite a few more. I at no point indicated that they were reasons that I personally would want to see such prosecutions or even that I would want to see them. Indeed it would depend on exactly what they were accused of doing and what the evidence was to convince me one way or another that such trials were merited. Certainly a lot of SS troopers whose hands were as dirty or dirtier walked so there's a bit of an issue with at least the appearance of it being that they are being prosecuted simply because they lived so long. But back to my main point the inability to see the other side or sides in such discussions renders your pronouncements questionable at best. If I were a Jew or a Gypsy or from one of the villages whose inhabitants had been victims of the actions of the SS I can see how I might favor some of the rationales I gave.
    A rather questionable application of statistics. I'm not sure there were any in the county I grew up in but I've run into a fair number since I left for college. The same could be said of a number of other groups of people. In any case this seems irrelevant to the topic at hand
    ????
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Simply, to be on-topic. We may discuss East-Prussia on some other occasion.
    In the previous post I have demonstrated negligible likelihood I have ever and would ever encounter a Jew in my entire life. You simply have no ground to defeat me with your H-word Doublespeak. You recall me of Commies who used to intimidate with "If you refuse to deal with us we will deal with you!" Don't try to frame me into your mental constructs. I don't belong into your imaginary world of "Deniers".
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  12. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    How is Israel on topic for a thread about Finnland?
    Or not. It seems as relevant to the topic at hand as Israel does, indeed perhaps more so as it existed at the time.
    Not really. What you actually demonstrated is that your understanding of statistics and how to use them is rather flawed.
    You do a very good job of defeating yourself with "doublespeak" no need for us to take a hand in it although we may choose to point it out as I'm doing now.
    Deniers are hardly imaginary much less consigned to an "imaginary world". You've certainly at least ventured close to supporting their positions although the lack of coherence and both implicit and explicit contradictions suggest a chemical imbalance is possible.
     
  13. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I must ask you once again: Have you read the article from the opening post and why not?

    Let me recall you that the underlying investigation has been launched on request of Israelis:

    "The report is the product of a research effort launched by the Finnish State Archives after a January 4, 2018, appeal from Israel-based historian Efraim Zuroff to Finland’s President Sauli Niinisto to investigate the role played by Finnish volunteers in the Wiking division’s murder of Jews during the war. Research for the report began in May 2018."
    Similar requests were send to Swedish and Norwegean authorities.

    PS: Whenever I talked to you I had strange Déjà vu impression. But of course: you act and talk like the good old Perry Mason.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Saying the investigation "has been launched on request of Israelis" is a bit misleading is it not? The implication is that it's if not the Israeli government at least a sizeable body of them yet when you get down to it the request has been made by a historian based in Israel. It's not even clear he is an Israeli.
     
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It is misleading, the investigation was launched at the behest of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the head of it's Israel Office, located in Jerusalem, and Dr. Zuroff is also the Coordinator of the SWC Nazi war crimes research worldwide.

    He explains his view of chasing after very elderly Nazis in this piece from 2013, "Nazis in their nineties: not too old for justice."
    Nazis in their nineties: not too old for justice
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    So we should refrain from calling a spade a spade...
     
  17. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Ah, then he operates from the annexed territory, the Jewish Lebensraum at the East.
    Relentless in revenge just as his god who created them in His own image: his atavistic desire for revenge, irreconcilable, bloodthirsty hunter of half-dead 90+ men. They make my blood freeze from horror.
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    So...Murder is legal in your country?

    Or are you saying that murderers should not be prosecuted?

    Or, is it that these people.only killed Jews, which is not a crime in your book.
     
  19. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    No, that's not my point. But, SS Wiking murdered much more other innocent people and now, Israelis insist that just crimes against Jews should be prosecuted. Just look at Russians, for exsmple, predominantly faithful Christians have abandoned old grudges and are not extorting other countries to prosecute former soldiers who have "likely" killed Jews more than a half a century ago.
    If these eight Finns have done anything wrong they will very soon burn in Hell. Why bother with grandpas on deathbeds? Just to weaponize Israeli lobyists?
     
  20. Black6

    Black6 Member

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    The SS was a criminal organization and the murder tool of the Nazis. Former members who can be positively identified as having taken part in murder, crimes against humanity, etc. are fair game for justice. The Israelis are very serious about "Never Forget", which doesn't make them wrong for pursuing these men if they are indeed guilty. Did any other nation employ a criminal organization to execute a genocidal plan against a specific target or people? There is no parallel in modern history to compare this too.
     
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