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How did the "Continuation War" begin

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by Artema, Mar 13, 2010.

  1. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Some points of wiews...

    1. No, they did NOT. Some German airplanes used a Finnish airfield (Utti) when returning from their air raid. They left from East Prussia and returned there. NO German aircraft flew any missions against SU from Finnish airfields before June 25th afternoon.

    2. Yes, Hitler said so. Finland immediately told this not being the case - also straight to the soviets.

    3. There were about the same number of German troops in Lapland (less than 50.000) than there were soviet troops in Hanko (about 30.000). They were not allowed to attack against SU if SU did not start the war.

    4. Estonia is not SU.

    5. This is not true

    6. This is not true. This happened 22nd of June. Because there was a new war between Germany and SU Finland had to make sure, that Aland islands were not to be occupied by any foreign country.

    7. Not true, as was proven before.

    8. Of course it was. There was an imminent threat of a new war with SU and Germany, which both had troops in Finland. It would have been insane not to do so. Finnish troops were lined for defence.

    These facts say clearly that Finland wanted to make sure she waw prepared IF the war would broke out. She wanted to stay out if possible, but was ready to act if needed.
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Karjala,

    Could you please provide any sources which support the following:

    1. There was no Luftwaffe in Finland which launched raids on Leningrad on June 22, 1941.
    2. Finland did not break the Moscow treaty by re militarizing the Aland Islands.
    3. That an attack on Finland by the Soviet Union was imminent.
    4. Estonia was not part of the Soviet Union in 1941.
    5. That Finland told the Soviet Union she was neutral.
    6. Stalin broke numerous treaties.


    I am really eager in reading your sources please provide them.
     
  3. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    1. I cannot provide a source to something that did not happen! It is your task to provide a source if you claim that such raids were launched FROM Finland.

    However e.g. Prof. Hans Peter Krosby in his book "Nikkelidiplomatiaa Petsamossa 1940-41" states, that no German raids from Finland happened before 25.6.1941.

    There was a group of Lufwaffe planes from East Prussia on that day, which landed to Utti, Finland to refuel AFTER a raid to Leningrad and then continued back to their home base.

    To be continued...
     
  4. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Considering that Estonia was occupied by Soviet troops, wether or not It was formally part of the SU is semantics, it was certainly controlled by the Soviets
     
  5. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    ...

    2. Have you actually read the treaty? Here it is:

    Treaty between Finland and the Soviet Union concerning the land Islands
    Finland did not militarize the islands before the war broke out. After that Finland made sure that they could not be used by any other country - as the treaty of the League of Nations demanded.
     
  6. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Here's the Geneve convention of 1921 (League of Nations) of Aland's demilitarizing (in French and Swedish):

    http://www.regeringen.se/content/1/c6/01/51/11/cde0bb81.pdf

    In the articles 6 and 7 is clearly stated, that in the wartime or if a foreign attack is threatning the islands Finland can take necessary measures to prevent the possible attacks.
     
  7. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    ...
    3. Hitler-Molotov meetings in Berlin 12th-13th November 1940:

    "MOLOTOV THREATENS WAR WITH FINLAND
    Molotov replied that the Soviet Government considered it as its duty definitively to settle and clarify the Finnish question. No new agreements were needed for that. The old German-Russian agreement assigned Finland to the Russian sphere of influence. "

    A DIRECT CLASH BETWEEN HITLER AND MOLOTOV OVER FINLAND
    "When the Führer replied that he could only repeat that there must be no war with Finland, because such a conflict might have far-reaching repercussions, Molotov stated that a new factor had been introduced into the discussion by this position, which was not expressed in the treaty of last year. "

    Hitler Molotov Meeting Berlin 1940

    27th November 1940 the new attack plan against Finland was ready. E.g. in Salla (Northern Finland) there were supposed to attack 9 divisions (4 x the number in the Winter War). Their aim was to cut Finland half. "Accidentally" the SU demanded in the peace treaty after the Winter War that Finland was to build a railway from Salla to the Swedish border...(Ohto Manninen, "Talvisodan salatut taustat", Porvoo 1994, pages 48-52)

    At the same time 2 more divisions were supposed to move to Hanko, where already were 30.000 soviet troops, who were supposed to attack towards Helsinki. Big invasion was also supposed to make to Aland islands. (Ohto Manninen, "Miten Suomi valloitetaan", 2008, page 120)

    By the beginning of June there were already 21 soviet divisions against Finland. (Raimo Heiskanen, Saadun tiedon mukaan, 1989, pages 144-145, 201) Finland had 13 brigades...

    The SU increased pressure on Finland:
    - on 14th June 1940 the SU shot down Finnish passenger plane "Kaleva". The SU never admitted this
    - on 23rd June 1940 the demand, that the Petsamo mine was to be handed over to the SU
    - on 8th August the demand to have the right to carry soviet troops on rail to/from (occupied) Hanko Peninsula - through Helsinki!
    - 109 soviet border violations in 1941
    - 85 soviet aerial border violations in 1941 (=reconnaissance flights). (Pentti Pirhonen, "Suomen kesäkuu 1941", 1981, page 41)
    - continuation of massive soviet strategic road (15) and railway (3) works towards Finnish borders. (Essential for attacks, harmful for defence) One of the railway works had 100.000 forced labourers
    - building new airfields close to Finnish borders. Later the number was counted as being 90!
    (G. Mannerheim, "Muistelmat", 1952, part II, page 298)
    - agitation of communist demonstrations and unrest in Finland. The Finnish communists (led by the soviets) stated, that "the Baltic way was to be also the Finnish way" (= annexation to the SU)
    - interference on the Finnish sovereignty by demanding which Finnish politicians to be sacked and which to have the rights to be elected
    - demands to have the rights for the soviet "diplomats" to move (= spy) freely all over Finland (the Finnish didn't have such rights)

    Pravda wrote after the annexation of the Blatic states that "the history has not finished it's story yet". Molotov said, that "our aim is not to be satisfied with what we have already achieved" (annexing the Baltics). Month before Molotov said to the vice prime and foreign minister of Lithuania that "your Lithuania with the other Baltic states INCLUDING FINLAND has to join the honourable family of the nations of the SU" (Hans Peter Krosby, "Nikkelidiplomatiaa Petsamossa 1940-1941", 1966, pages 80-81)

    An US diplomat Walter Thurston in Moscow informed the US State Deparment on 8th August 1940 of the new troop movements towards Finland. The estimate was 25 divisions. A couple of days later the US military attaché in Moscow got the information from "trustworthy sources" that the soviets were moving 30 divisions towards Finland. (Hans Peter Krosby, "Nikkelidiplomatiaa Petsamossa 1940-1941", 1966, page 86)

    And so on and so on...
     
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  8. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    4. The annexations of the Baltic States were unlawful acts and against the constitutions and laws of those countries. Therefore those countries were not lawfully part of the SU. E.g. USA never acknowledged the Baltic States as part of the SU, neither did Finland "de jure".

    Again I cannot provide any source for something which did not happen. Instead you have to provide a source where Finland - or USA for example - acknowledges the annexation(s) as lawful acts.
     
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  9. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Yes, Estonia was controlled by the soviets. It was however the Estonians and their legal government who/which could have agreed on or protested of the (defencive) minings of their waters - not the occupying soviets. So far no protests have been done...

    Unless somebody proves the opposite I believe that Estonia and the Estonians agreed on those minings.
     
  10. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    ...
    6. Stalin broke at least the following treaties:

    - the covenant of the League of Nations. The SU joined in 1934
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/leagcov.asp
    - the peace treaty of Tartu in 1920
    http://www.histdoc.net/history/dorpat1920_en.html
    - the non-aggression pact between Finland and the SU in 1932
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Finnish_non-aggression_pact
    - the reaffirmation of the non-aggression pact in 1934

    The staging of Mainila accident, where NKVD fired few shots towards Mainila village (an empty, originally Finnish village on the soviet side), and accusing Finland for it - thus creating "the casus belli" - certainly broke many treaties...
     
  11. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Laughable too, ".. Soviet Union's historical rights to the Islands."

    That'll be why the use of the Russian language has always been so common on these islands... NOT!
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In December 1940 Molotov in Berlin sent by Stalin demanded their part of the Aug 1939 pact i.e. Finland Molotov was furious but as Hitler had already changed his mind warned Molotov of starting any war with Finland or the area.You could ask who wanted war and why?
     

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