If Germany took Iceland

If Germany took iceland before we sent troops there in 1939-40. If he did it before attacking Russia or Britain, in the early years of the war.

 

The British would likely try & take it back in 41 with US help-involvement. If they snuck in just before Brits, they might hold it til spring 41 as Brits would be very busy in BoB, then weather could become a problem fall & winter. That gives them 9-12 months or so use of the Island.

Would certainly help get supply ships out to Atlantic. Icelanders were more favorable towards Germans than British as Germans built their roads before the war.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch19.htm#b2

above is an outline of British defense.

 

"We sent troops there in 1939-40"

I suppose this is the Royal wee.

First to get past the Royal Navy, when they are not sheltering in their Home Ports. You know, the guys who shattered the Kriegsmarine in the Norway Invasion

Then to defeat the British & Canadian Troops who were stationed there, and finally, around mid 1941, defeat 1st Provisional Marine Bde USMC.

Icelanders, being proud Danes as well, would have helped fight off the attacking Germans.

 

Icelanders are Norse.

http://www.irdp.co.uk/JohnCrook/iceland.htm

German interest in Iceland in the 1930's grew from nothing at all to proportions found by the British government to be alarming. The Reich's favours began with friendly competition between German and Icelandic soccer teams and free instruction in gliding by German experts who arrived in the summer of 1938 with gliders and an airplane -- perfect, in the British view, for compiling maps and discovering suitable landing grounds. A "suspicious" number of German anthropology teams arrived to survey the island and Lufthansa airlines attempted, unsuccessfully, to establish an air service. U-boats visited Reykjavik and the cruiser Emden called. Commercial trade between the countries also increased dramatically.

 

It was pretty darn well defended by the British it seems and I know we sent quite a few marines there too. It would've been one hell of a feat for hitler to pull it off. But if he ever did we might've been in some deep... well you know. But he would've had to bulster defenses on the island in order to keep it from being taken right back.

And I made a mistake on my dates. We already had troops there in 1930-1940. But still, if he took it before we sent troops there.

I know the island is a very strategic location, especially if you want to control the north atlantic, including the shipping lanes the Britian. It appeared to be vital for control of the north atlantic.

 

An ocean liner was gonna be used for this op. For something like this to be successful, a load of preplanning would be essential. Ships fitted out after Polish campaign. It's very unlikely they would have thought that far ahead, France & Norway had to fall 1st, & neither was certain.

It remains an interesting what if. Iceland invaded before Norway? By ship alone? Well a couple Condors maybe.

 

Few of these might've been handy.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH9906/FR9906d.htm

critics claimed that apart from her own weight, the Do X was unable to transport another payload.

Claude Dornier prepared a spectacular demonstration for these doubters. On 21 October 1929, a foggy Monday morning, 159 employees and members of the press as well as 10 crew members gathered at the entry hatch of the Do X.

All guests used light wicker chairs as makeshift seats, which were placed between the bare aluminium girders and ribs inside the giant. Just after 11 o'clock the Do X took off after 50 seconds, which seemed to last forever, with an overall weight of 44.768 tons. The airship with its 169 passengers stayed airborne for 53 minutes and flew over Bregenz, Lindau and Friedrichshafen. With this important 42nd flight the Do X achieved an unofficial record for transporting passengers, which was only broken in 1949, when the military transport aircraft Lockheed Constitution took up operations. She had 168 passengers and 11 crew on board.


The aircraft took off for her flight across the Atlantic to South America on 31 January. After 7 hours and an average speed of 190km/h the flying boat reached its stop Las Palmas.

On 30 May 1931 the Atlantic leg could at last be attempted. The South American Continent was reached via the Capverdian Islands at Natal/Brazil on 5 June.

 

& as for resupply, one avenue of travel is the U-tanker. Even in WW1 the Germans had these. If they had expanded on this concept, ( which they should have knowing GB would be one of the potential hostiles ), they might've had a large piece of the supply problem licked.

Hitlers interests in the east cancelled out any sort of Island strategy, Azores, Canaris, Madagascar, etc. Still, we are in what if, so it's all good.


"Deutschland" had a cargo capacity of 700 tons (small if compared with surface ships, but equal to that of seven 1990-era C-5A airplanes). She engaged in high-value trans-Atlantic commerce, submerging to avoid British patrols; on her first trip, she carried dyestuff and gemstones to America, nickel, tin and rubber (much of it stored outside the pressure hull) back to Germany.


The cargo-carrying submarine "Deutschland" at New London, CT, in November, 1916, on one of her two "civilian" visits to the United States; three months later she had been converted and sent to war as U-153.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/hist1900n09.html

http://www.aikensairplanes.com/dragonwings/drw55904.htm

Here's a C5-A. That's quite a load, 7 C5-A's

 

G-38 Payload 5 tons.

http://members.aol.com/wwatrans/unique.htm

Junkers G-38
Year: 1929
Type: Civil transport monoplane
Engines: Junkers-L 88a, 800hp each
Wingspan: 144 ft. 4.25 in.
Length: 76 ft. 1.25 in.
Height: 22 ft. 6 in.
Weight: 52,911 lbs.
Cruising speed: 112 mph
Range: 2,175 miles
Crew: 7
Passengers: 34
The Junkers G-38 was a milestone in civil aviation design. A flying-wing, the G-38 was used by Lufthansa for high profile international flights until 1936. In real life only two G-38 were ever produced. An excellent choice for Nazi villains.

 

Nobody much likes this subject, but if they did take it, & given the capacity of the machines listed above, ( not to mention some of the other longrange flying boats BV 138 etc ), it is within the technical ability of the germans to do it & resupply it, I would imagine one of the 1st things they would do is establish air bases along the top & around bay of Hunafloi to cover cargo ships on the way in.

The RN would learn as they did at Crete just how vulnerable they are. 700-800 miles separates Norway from Iceland, so half way planes could cover from Norway, & the remaining half covered by the Iceland based planes. Some would just make a big arc say from Bergen head beyong the shetland patrol perimeter, & then head down just as many other German ships did in the war.

A good map.
http://www.goobz.net/map/europe.htm#

Perhaps Trondheim a better debarkation point.

 

Hey Chrome, this is pure Raiders of the Lost Ark material

 

Are you sure? If they were unable to supply Stalingrad at a much shorter distance how would they do the miracle of being able to maintain an air bridge 800 miles long? Also remember the longer the hop the lesser the payload, so how much load would be landed? How many trips would you have to make on what planes (those 2 G38s? for a force size of your choice?

Ah, but in Crete you were close to the German bases in the Peloponese, within easy bombing range. Shooting fish in a barrel so to speak, nowhere to hide. In the Atlantic it would be quite another matter, and Glorious and Illustrious or whatever would simply sit astride your airways and throw it's Seafires at whatever Junkers or Blohm und Voss that tried to run the gauntlet. A floating Malta island and you know what this did to the Afrika Korps logistics.

 

I cannot see Germany being able to sustain support to Iceland. They would have to have control of the area in-between and they could not do that. If a major effort was made to produce submarines to haul fuel and cargo, it might have been possible, but unlikely.

 

Seadog, is a submarine an efficient means to transport cargo or is it a last resort?

 

Russia had some experiments in this, and the japanese had several cargo transports. I will try to get more info on those. There are a lot of advantages to carrying cargo by sub, espcially if you do not control the air. Some investors have looked at large commercial subs in the past, but they have never taken off.

 

Im going to go on a lim here and say that Germany would have a very difficult time supplying Iceland. Just like Za said, Germany couldnt re-supply Stalingrad and it was much closer. Keep in mind chromeboomerang that Germany had no navy which means that there were only 2 ways supplies would ever reach iceland.

1. U-boats, there were several problems with this option. The obvious is how many U-boats is it going to take to re-supply iceland, and how long will that take? The other reason is that the more U.S. got involved the more patrols there were protecting convoys and searching for German subs. This would really cut the crews survivability. Not to mention the British navy eagerness to get revenge.

2. The other option Luftwaffe, here come more problems. A sub could carry a bigger paid load then a plane. Another problem is the fact that German pilots hated crossing the channel in between france and Britain. How do u think they would have felt if they had to cross the channel and all off the British coast line in some cases? Thanks to radar Britain would always know where the Germans were even if they were to fly from Norway and especially if they were close to britain which would make pretty easy prey.

My thought at least

 

Other than several subs capable of hauling aircraft, the Japanese had 12 D-1 boats and one D-2 boat which were designed to carry cargo. They also had one Sen Ho type that could carry 390 tons of cargo, including 365 tons of aviation gas. They also converted one large aircraft carrier sub (I-402) to carry fuel. this sub carried three seaplanes and parts before conversion.

During the war, the soviets designed project 607 to carry 250-300 tons of cargo and 110 tons of gasoline, but none were built due to shifting demands of the war.

Right after the war, Project 621 was designed with two vehicle decks. It could carry 745 troops, 10 T-34 tanks, 12 trrucks w/towed cannons and 3 La-5 fighter aircraft. Other designs include Projects 626, 632, 648, 664, and 748.

There was also a proposal to convert retired Typhoons into LNG transports for use in the artic zone and transporting under the polar ice cap.

My own opinion is that there is great potential for submarines to replace large surface ships, including aircraft carriers. Any rogue nation can take out a capital ship under the right circumstances. The days of projected might are passing.

 

Remember, these were WW1 vintage subs & carried 700 tons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/hist1900n09.html

As for Staligrad, the weather was # 1 factor in that debacle, & the 6th army would require 100 times more supplies than a small stationary garrison of soldiers on Iceland would. The Brits only had 25.000 troops there.

& as was pointed out, subs can carry much more than transport planes. The combination of the 2 would total much more than made it to Stalingrad.


"Germans were even if they were to fly from Norway and especially if they were close to britain which would make pretty easy prey."

Have a look at the map, Trondheim is waaay far north of UK, no worries from RAF on that route.
http://www.goobz.net/map/europe.htm#

 

"The other reason is that the more U.S. got involved the more patrols there were protecting convoys and searching for German subs."

Not in 1940.

"and Glorious and Illustrious or whatever would simply sit astride your airways and throw it's Seafires at whatever Junkers or Blohm und Voss that tried to run the gauntlet. A floating Malta island and you know what this did to the Afrika Korps"

& be ceremoniously sunk by JU 88's or Scharnhorst or U-boat.


British troops, soon joined by a Canadian force, had landed in Iceland on 10 May 1940. Norway was secured by April 10, so that leaves about a month for attack on Iceland before Brits arrive.

 

Chromeboomerang, in 1940 Germany was occupied with France, Denmark, Norway and others. Hitler's next goal was to accupy Great Britain, and this is what he was planning for. Afterall if Britain fell, there was no need to capture Iceland right?