Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by C.Evans, Jan 2, 2001.
maybe not but he still wanted stalingrad
Partially correct, Hitler never intended to go past the Astrakahn to Arkhangelsk Line, but in some readings Hitler wanted to push the Soviets past the Urals. But either way, the point is even with the capture of Moscow and the eventual capture of the A-A line, The one fundamental fact is that the Soviet Red Army would not be defeated, the Soviets could pull back as far as they wanted, leaving a massive scorched earth policy.
Considering that Stalin had previously sent out peace feelers to Germany in November, the fall of Moscow might have forced an armistice in favor of the Germans.
When were they primed to advance? Not towards the end of the offensive that's for sure. They were on their last legs and those were frost bitten. They may have actually gotten into the city but that would have been a deathtrap. What tanks they had would have been useless and I assure you that infantry rule in a city battle, not mechanization. The worst place for a tank is in the city, especially a large one like Moscow. It would have at best been another Stalingrad. Or worse.
I have heard of that but never seen any proof.
IIRC Didn't someone else mention this? I know that we asked for the source(s) but it was never provided.
It would be interesting to see who out of the Germans would be signing such a document. As the entire city was booby trapped and the buildings which the German High Command would have almost certainly visited ( such as the Kremlin or the Balshoi Theatre ) would have been blown up with the Germans inside.
Historical evidence to date, shows that the Russians were prepared to continue on with the bitter struggle even when Moscow fell as most expected it to do so.
Blowing up a few German commanders wouldn't have changed the overall situation. But i agree with what you said.
What really won the war for Russia was her industrial might after the five-year-plans. If the Germans managed to capture Moscow, a good part of the Russian infrastructure would have been disabled. That means fewer reinforcements, less equipment, and long delays before they arrive. That might have changed something, but Germany lacked the resource for a lengthy struggle.
So you are saying that if Hitler wasnt' blow up in the bombs the war wouldn't end or die down?
Im bet loosing Guderian, Skorenzy, Von Bock would have left at least a minor dent in the German war machine.
Oh what about Model, Von Runstedt, Rommel or Goering well actually I reckon lossing Georing would have probably helped the Germans or maybe Donitz was on leave and he died would that mean no more effective wolfpacks
Blowing Goering and Hitler up would have truely helped the Germans immensely.
If the Russians blew up Hitler the German generals would have probably made for peace and that would have been that .
So maybe the Russians should have just let the Germans talke Moscow
I agree, but you might have added others to the list as well.
Come to think of it, if these plus the rest of the nazi party top-snakes were blown up, what would keep Germany from joining the Allies?
From 1941-1942, the Germans wouldn't want to join the Allies due to their military performance.
From 1943-1945, the Germans wouldn't be able to join the Allies due to their military performance.
U are evil
The same as Alexander had done when Napolean captured moscow...move the capital to another city, burn the majority of property before it could be considered plunder or trophies of war...and make the German forces transport say 3 meals a day for 300,000 troups, fodder for 100,000 horses...yes the main railhead,artery of Russia stemmed from Moscow...but to assume Stalin would say,,,good show old chap, here you go, you win,,,take what you will and do what you want???
Unsure as to the historical accuarte events,,,as i am more sure some here are more knowledgeable...but in Napoleons plight...yes they did capture moscow...but what then,,,their troops where starved...frozen...lack of adequate shelter to survive a year before action could resume in the spring fall...so they turn around and headed home...thus the Czar attacked..and if Napoleons forces where anything like the German at Falaise during a retreat, or stopped in the Ardennes, trying to head home, pull equipment to defend oneself led to a shamble/chaos, and the Grande Armee payed heavily, and costly during this retreat back to France...
I have to agree, especially with bf109 emil, and several of you other posters. If the Germans had gotten into Moscow it would been a serious trap. Supply is a problem. Harassment on their flanks is a problem. Mines and anti-personnel devices everywhere in the city, plus "stay-behinds" (snipers / guerrillas) would cause serious loses. All of this, coupled with the fact that there would still be a major amount of Soviet forces which had not been brought to battle. The Soviets proved that they could hang in for a battle of attrition. The Germans could not afford it for long. Also, and occupation of Moscow could have been used by Stalin as a serious motivator for the Russian people and army.
As bad a trap as Stalingrad later became.
This remiands me something i should have recalled much earlier. Back in 1980 a lecture on the Franco Prussian war described how Paris as a rail hub aided the besigers. The railroads converging from several directions enabled the attackers to make converging attacks.
A look at the map suggests the RKKA would have the same advantage. The railroads from the east and south east, plus the local interconnectig tracks would help the approach of several armys on converging axis. The Germans seem to have been trying accquire the same advantage from the west by their flanking attacks. But, these failed through lack of strength. Also the Germans lacked enough railroads engineering units to restore all the capacity they needed. The USSR would have more or less intact railroads, and a considerable resifual construction capability to keep the running.
I suspect German defends of Moscow would be further hampered by depending on one or maybe two patched up trunk lines, with little or no supporting tracks or other infrastructure. Wile the RKKA retained the ability to pile reinforccements and ammunition into the battle along their surrounding rails.
The map brings another question. The common assumption in these threads is the remaining Soviet industrial capacity was mostly off in Siberia somewhere. However just up the road from Moscow is the ciy of Gorki. As i understand it that city and others nearby had been well developed as industrial ceters since the 1920s. If so then this suggests the 'bolshiviks' are in much better shape for military supply than often susposed.