If you were a German general in command of the whole Eastern Front...

Kai-Petri

Agreed on the bad decision.

I'm just mad at the aftermath of Villers Bocage.

 

I'm not sure if this would be such a good idea.

Consider that the northern pincer (Model's 9th Army - yes, the one with the all Ferdinands and Panthers) had been stopped in it's tracks after a 10 mile penetration.

Also Prokhorovka occurred as a secondary objective as the direct axis to Kursk through Oboyan was found to be impenetrable, so II SS PzKorps had to sidetrack towards Prokhorovka.

The other formations on each side of II SS PzKorps are not making much progress, so the further you advance the higher the likelyhood you are going to extend your eastern flank too much and Ivan won't stay still.

You find your way blocked and the other pincer is a non starter. Is there a point in continuing when you are all alone?

 

This is completely outdated, what has he been reading, Caidin's 'Tigers are Burning'? There were not so many panzers at Prokhorovka, and the Germans did not loose much more than 70 tanks in total. Rubbish

 

Also bear in mind that the same day the Prokhorovka battle started the Soviets were launching Operation Kutuzov, a massive assault on the 2nd and 9th Armies, the ones supposed to make up the northern pincer, sweeping the entire German Orel salient.

After Prokhorovka subsided the Soviets launched a large diversion in the Mius river, just north of the Azov sea, which pulled the II SS PzKorps away, and in 3rd Aug launched Op. Rumiantsev, the equivalent of Op. Kutuzov in the south. Really, the situation was hopeless...

 

Actually I think the Soviets were a bit worried because the Kutuzov was launched earlier (?!) than planned, in order to relieve the pressure in the Prokhorovka area . Also I recall the 5th guards was not supposed to take part in the Kursk operations at all which is why they made the long march to the area in the first place.

However otherwise it was all a huge trap and Stalin never had anything to worry about.It was the Germans who would be sorry for losing the new tanks.

 

Yes, Op. Kutuzov was brought forward a bit and 5th Gds.Tk. Army was not really intended to be used like that. However the Oboyan-Kursk direction had been found to be closed and that's what caused the Germans to try and explore towards Prokhorovka, which was not a bad idea as it also allowed 4th Pz Army's 2nd SS PzKorps and Armee Abteilung Kempf's 3rd Pz Korps to converge in this direction.

Yes, the Soviet command was anxious and they had good cause to be.

Nevertheless, 9th Army on the Northern sector had been stopped previously and was undergoing Op. Kutuzov, precipitated or not, and 4th Pz.Army had found the direct way to Kursk through Oboyan blocked, that's why it had to do like the mustard on a hotdog: it was squeezed sideways (towards Prokhorovka!)

As an apart, this convergence gave the Sovs cause to perform a timely retreat before these two pincers closed, saving a large number of formations from encirclement, bar a very small number that could not escape. Definitely, July '43 was not a good month for encirclements.

After I finish the Churchill biography I'm reading at present (boooooring, I'm still with Winnie at the Home Office before WWI), I have Glantz's Kursk to reread.

 

Armee Abteilung Kempf's actions in some books have been hinted as "too slow to make it to the battle" but not much has been discussed what they could have done if they did get there in time. If I remember correctly they could have hit the Prokhorovka area from the eastern flank but as the Germans already dealt with the 5th Guards tanks with what they got without Kempf I don´t know what else could have taken place? ideas?

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean, Kai.

A.A.Kempf was not exactly slow, there were a lot of Russians in between, and these had to beat a hasty but deliberate retreat before A.A.Kempf and 4th Pz.A. could make contact.

Jeez, I'd like to see these discussions go into the long-lived Kursk discussion thread instead of being dispersed here and there

 

In Will Fowler "Kursk" ( Myself making it shorter )

The Kempf´s troops were too slow and thus failed to cover the II SS panzerkorps´ flank.

This required that the II SS Korps used 167th Infantry and Das Reich divisions to protect its flank along the Lipovyi Donets river.

Also from another book ( forgot the name already...) AG Kempf failed to prevent the 5th Guards from linking with the 1st tank Army.

So at least they failed to cover the flank and troops that could have been used for the main attack in prokhorovka were used in the flank protection (?!)

 

Ah, yes, it was something like that, but one has to consider that A.A.K.'s IIIPzKorps also had some problems stretching northwards and leaving it's eastern flank to the responsibility of 168th ID. Things were not easy.