Invasion of Iwo Jima anniversary as of the 19th of Feb

Well said, all of you, I'm glad that in this forum we can resolve our quarrels, unlike in many others.

I can understand Friedrich's earlier viewpoint. The problem we, and many other Europeans have, is not what "Americans think" but what we think they think!

I know many Americans, and so far I have not encountered one personally that fitted any of the typical prejudices we entertain against them!

The reason for us thinking that Americans think they are the best people in the world and everybody else is worth shit lies in the media, ESPECIALLY Hollywood war movies, which almost without deviation make the Americans look like heroes and everybody else is just a jerk. This is misinterpreted by viewers as the opinion of the American public, which is of course utter nonsense.

Take for example Pearl Harbour. At the end, there is a seemingly endless tirade about how Pearl Harbour was so terrible, how until the Doolittle Raid America only knew failure and how afterwards it knew only success, how those brave courageous two and a half thousand deaths sparked America's glorious crusade etc etc. To me, as a German, that last bit nearly made me throw up. I'm sorry, but there it is. Part of the reason is also that patriotism has been a tabu thema in Germany for a long while. It is there and not. It is vital and it is verboten. It could be said that we've had an identity crisis for a few decades, after all there were not few teachers that tought children to be ashamed of being Germans.

Ulimately, when I left the cinema after Pearl Harbour (saw the film in the States, BTW), I converted that last line of the film to Germany so my friends could see what I thought of it. It ran something like this: "For Germany, the war began on 1st September 1939 when the battleship Schleswig Holstein bombarded the Westerplatte and Stukas took off to bomb Poland. It ended six years later when the country was entirely destroyed, every city bombed, half of the population displaced, fifteen percent of it dead, and the country was under foreign occupation."

They all understood what I meant.

We all know that every war means casualties. We all know that brave men die on both sides. And we all know that each country will mourn its own dead before the others.

And like you all said, this happened so long ago that it really isn't worth squabbling over this now!

 

Perhaps a better way of putting it is that the German has been brought up to distrust nationalism and radical patriotism.

This is why he then instinctively is afraid or at the very least deeply concerned when he sees patriotism practiced in other nations.

 

I agree with you a lot Andreas! Amerikan war films make look Japanesse and Germans like jerks and butchers. I also threw up after watching Pearl Harbour ( I also threw up when I saw the filthy love story of it ). Most of those war films made by the amerikans show us like jerks. Example: U 571. It was not like that. You must see Wolfang Petersen's "Das Boot" to see exactly how it happened. That is why I hesitate in watching HBO, Spielberg and Hank's "Band of brothers". It is going to be an excellent production, but I am afraid about how are they going to show us!

Something else about "Pearl Harbour". The stupid film show admiral Yamamoto inside one of the carriers of the attack when he was thousands of kilometres away in the Yamato!

And I am very proud of my country, its military past. Teachers should teach their pupils to be proud of dates like September 27th, June 22nd (1940) or entire years like 1871! Because History is not like Hollywood shows it! That is one of the things I most dislike about the Amerikans!

There is an exception of those war films and it is "Saving private Ryan". Germans are shown there just as men protecting their ground... I hope "Band of brothers" would be the same.

 

Andreas--Friedrich--well said guys and I agree with you.

As Andreas said--Americans and Germans think differently and on different terms.

Im doing my best to understand things from the German and European points of view.

Im VERY priviledged to know many wk2 German combat Vets.

I hope nobody feels like im trying to argue a moot point or trying to point a finger at someone--which is definately not my intention-merely the pointing out of small facts.

I definatelt agree with your assessment on H'woods portrayal of German soldiers--or Germans in general. I think that is a long past and dead wrong thing to do their non accurate portrayals of Germans.

I know and are friends with too many Germans--to have even 1 micro-atom of ill will towards Germans. I think I have mentioned this several times.

Friedrich--Andreas--as Germans--I think you know that it isnt exactly easiy for an American stranger--to meet up with and becoma a trusted friend with German vets--but I did manage to do so.

My best German friends are Remy Schrijnen--a gunner in Sturmbrigade Langemarck and who is also a Ritterkreuztrager. My best friend in Germany, served in the Kriegsmarine and was an NCO on U 181 under Wolfgang Luth (need I say more about him) and under Kapitan zur See Kurt Freiwald. Karl is a recipient of the Deutsches Kreuz im Gelb--one of 27,000 recipients of that bravery award. This award was Hitlers attempt at bridging the gap between the Iron Cross 1st class and the Knights Cross.

I sent many photos to this sites webmaster of U 181--RKTs and other things for the express purpose of posting them on this site for all to enjoy--I plan to do the same with U 181s reunion which I attended in Sept 16-17th 2000.

Now for the rest of the story (as Paul Harvey would say)

Friedrich--I hope you do not feel insulted by anything I have posted here--its not meant to do that to you.

If you or Andreas do have something you feel is insulting or troubling--please let me know what it was so it can be fixed.

Sincerely yours--Carl.

 

A continuation of my last post...


There have been a few H-wood movies made that have portrayed Germans as decent people and the soldiers as good soldiers.

For example:

"A Time To Love and A Time To Die" which came out in either 1953 or 1955. This is a movie that starts out on the Eastern Front in wintertime. One soldier who is a Corporal--gets his long awaited 3 week leave and goes to his hometown. He goes to see his parents and sees that somethings never changed on one street but he turns a corner and finds nothing but total destruction and their apartment building is totally destroyed from bombings.

Part of the movie is spent with him searching for his parents--and then he meets a gal who he later marries. They survive bombings etc.

While this man is on leave--he also finds an old friend or two and tries to enjoy himself. He also stays in a barracks for men on leave.

The uniforms and medals you see are the real thing.

I like this movie very much BECAUSE it is an early H'wood attempt at portraying Germans as civilized people who are just like Americans.

The movie ends with him being sent back to his unit. I say no more on this movie as I would hate to give anything away.--It was all in all, an excellent movie.

Another movie I thought treated Germans as the "better of the two" was: "All's Quiet on the Western Front" both versions.

Another excellent movie portraying Germans was: "The Enemy Below" also from the late 1950s. This movie had Robert Mitchum as the American Destroyer commander and Kurd (Kurt)Jurgens as the Uboat commander. I believe that even for the 1950's--I think they did a good job at portraying Germans pretty well and fairly. For anyones information--the vets from U 181 liked this movie better than Das Boot--and alot of it was due to the fact that they thought Kurd (Kurt Jurgens, did an excellent job in the portrayal of the Uboat commadant, and I was told they were reminded of their Kapitan Kurt Freiwald because of the humanity of the Germans portrayal.

Also, if you have ever seen "Cross of Iron" with Maximilian Schell, James Mason, David Werner, James Coburn, Senta Berger et el--this was another more modern attempt at H-wood portraying Germans in a better way--more so than the usual H-wood dribble.

Another film I liked that I thought Germans mostly were portrayed better was "The Odessa File". Jon Voigt did a great job as a German Magazine reporter. In the movie his father was a Hauptmann in the German Army in ww2 and was a Knights Cross with Oak Leaves holder. He was killed by a Waffen SS and Concentration Camp Kommodant (Maximilian Schell).

One of my favorite parts in this film was when Peter Miller (Jon Voigt) went to the reunion meeting for the vets of Division Siegfried. This showed Germans having a good time spending it with their comrades and singing a military song.

Maria Schell BTW--is Peter Millers mother. She is as beautiful as ever. Mary Tamm is Millers girlfriend.

If you remember a multi-series put out years ago called: "The Winds of War" they also show many Germans as good people--with the usual H-wood exceptions. The sequel: "War and Remembrance" was good as well.

Forign films I have seen that I though where the Germans were treated pretty fairly were: "55 Days At Peking" using Imperial German Troops. Stalingrad Dogs, Do You Want To Live Forever" the original "Teufels General" and im sure their are others.

I loved Stalingrad--whats your opinions on Stalingrad?

 

No, I have not considered myself insulted in any moment. I do not have Amerikan friends but I am looking forward for having some. Now I know where to find them!

My grandfather is still alive, he is 86 years old and was a Leutnantoberst. Now he cannot speak because a Russian bullet destroyed his throath anf he lost his left eye. But he has told me a lot about his experienced and about the people he met; Generalfeldmarschall fedor von Bock, by example, was his close friend...

Do somebody know if there are some generals still alive ( from the German army ). I suposse if there are they should be Generalmajor...

 

Hello Friedrich and glad to know your not insulted. I also take your words as a very nice compliment and thank you for them as well.

Thats very nice to know that your grandfather was an Oberstleutnant and was good friends with Fedor von Bock. This site is now better because of this that you shared here.

I for one--as well as many others here also--would be very greatful to learn more about your Grandfather and what units he was in and where he served.

Also, I hope you can pass this along to your Grandfather for me, that I am sorry for his injuries and wish him well. He has my ut-most respect for being a man who stood up in combat and was shot at.

I would like your permission of telling my friend Remy about your grandfather.

Also, you chose the right place to start having Americans as friends--believe me--we all feel the same way here. Let me be the first one here to call you my friend

If possible--please tell us anything more about your Grandfather.

Take care and hope to hear from you soon--Carl.

 

I do respect my grandfather a lot. As a person and as a soldier. He served in the 14 Panzerdivision in the Balkans as and adjutant to general... ( bloody Alheimer! ) I will tell you later. He was a liason in the Afrika Korps from late 1941 to late 1942 with Brescia, Folgore, Ariete, etc. Divisions.

He is my father's father. And my mother's father served as a radio operator and as a translator in the British army since 1914 till 1918. Obviously he is death. Did you know that WWI last veteran died just six months ago?

Carl, did you like the battle of Stalingrad or a film named Stalingrad?

 

Excellent family history Friedrich--excellent. I bet your Opa saw many terrible moments throuout the war.

I can't say that I like a battle because of all the death and destruction that happened. I can say that I do like studying about a battle (Stalingrad is my favorite battle to study about)

I loved watching the movie and I do plan on buying a copy of it hopefully on DVD. I thought it was an excellent German made war movie. I thought it portrayed decently--some of the horrors that the Landser experianced at Stalingrad--even starvation and sickness.

 

Friedrich

PS: I wasnt aware that the last ww1 German soldier had passed away already--I know that about a year ago, the last either Dutch or Belgian ww1 soldier had passed away too as far as I know--there are still appx 3,000+++ ww1 American vets still living as well as appx 3 Spanish-American War vets.

There was a list published on the Werhmacht awards site about 2-3 months ago listing how many ww1 soldiers from respective participants--were still living.

Its very sad that they are all passing away. American-German-British-French-etc)

 

I did not understand that very good. Are you trying to say that there are still alive 1898 war veterans? That cannot be true. They should be at least 119 years-old!!!

And I am very ashamed of inform you that the last wwI veteran past away on october 2001. A French men who was 108...

But I am very glad to hear about the seniorest survivour officers of WW2.I think my grandfather would achieve someday to be one of them. He is 86, but behaves as if he was 70!

 

Hello Friedrich: according to the US Govt--there are still indeed at least 3 Spanish-Americn War vets still living. There is a lady who lives in Florida that is supposed to be 122 yrs old.

I had a cousin who passed away in 1988--she was born in 1875. She was 113 yrs old. Her father was a Colonel in the Confederate Cavalry and lost an arm at the battle of Shiloh. After the Civil War--he was a Sheriff in Dodge City, Kansas.

Believe it or not--as they say

 

Re WW1 veterans left -if you check the BBC website it says there is 70 British WW1 veterans still around.

 

Welcome aboard and thanks for the info.

Also, there are about 3,000 American ww1 vets still living.

 

I'm suprised that there's that many US WW1 veterans still around.Would you it be possible if you can provide a link to the Wehrmacht Awards site WW1 info you mentioned please?I found the site but can't locate the topic.

Back on Iwo Jima -has anyone any idea on the final US death toll?I've seen figures that say 6800,then 6825?I think 700 of these were Naval Doctors and Corpsmen.

Are you a WW2 veteran Mr Evans?

 

Hello Foster. I think the topic mentioning the ww1 vets who still live, I think its located in the section called: "Die Kniepe". Ill go there after I finish here and look around. Due to high volume of posting traffic there--entire threads have to get deleted due to lack of storage space. If I find it there I will come back here and let you know.

Nope--im not a ww2 vet--or a vet. I tried to join the Army and the Air Force for about 10 years but could not because of my bad lungs from having double Pneumonia, when I was younger.

 

Well, the way I see it, you guys from Europe are wrong....and you are right. I think you are correct when you say you can't stand the way Amwerican movies portray people of othr nations as inferiour. I dont understand that, and I have always resented it myself even if I am an American. By the way it's not just the Germans we are talking about...remember the old Tarzan movies, and the way the natives were portrayed?...But their have always been movies that treat everybody that way. Carl is right, about "all quite on the western frount"....and others.....HOWEVER.....you must be realistic, it was America that started movie making for entertaing the general public. Did you think they would make a movie about Nazi's protryed as "good guys" in the year 1946.....I dont think so.The war was hard on everyone including Americans. Every family in the country knew someone who fought in Europe or the Pacific, and Holywood made movies for the folks back home showing what their boys were doing...and showing them dying. Of course they werent going to show the other sides point of view...It took a few years for some of the hurt to wear off befor movies could be made showing goodness and kindness on the part of our enemy's...again, Carl is right, "the enemy below" is one of my top five movies about the war. Part of the reson is because of the u-bout captain (kurt) and his first officer..."none but the brave" is a movie that is the best I think about how the Japanese think, and what they belive in. I thought it is very fair and even protraying the Japanese with Honor, intelegence and integratiy.....America is a grate Country, with people who as a whole want to do whats right. And when they see injustice, they try to change it.It takes time for a Nation to evolve, and I like to think we are getting better as time go's on....so are the Germans and the Japanese!....As for the thinking the war happened a long time ago....I think that the world, including Europe and the East should not forget....not ever what brought the world to the Carrnage of World War two, and the reasons it started, and what it took to stop it.....and perhaps, how it may have been avoided...Im sorry you seem to resent Americans so much. We really arent so bad once you get to know us...BUT...just so you know where Im comeing from...I dont admire Hitler...I never have...I and never will...later.

 

Thanks for the compliments--I couldnt add much more except:

I think Foster was saying we had nothing to compare in casualties comparing to Stalingrad that is. All I could think of was Iwo Jima--and Tarawa, as a comparison that American can make--to Stalingrad.

I think the target was missed because of too much wind. What I mean in--I dont think that it was fair to try to say that Americans never faced a "Stalingrad" situation and had comparable casualties. Thing is, our country never liked to just blindly toss away lives--What for? What would anyone gain from letting 2,000 men get killed when the situation happened and only 10 died?

I NEVER could understand European combat tactics and the waste in human, animal lives and materials--leave me totally disgusted

Personally, I think Foch, and Ludendorf BOTH, should have been arrested and shot--for the wastes they caused all because they never wanted to visit the "ordinary" men who wer dying in droves, at the front. Frainch generals especially tick me off.

Also, for the British--the slaughter mentioned above, is partly to blame for the mutinys of so many frontline combat troops.

Look at the 1930 version of: "Alls Quiet on the Western Front" the scenes of mass charges accross the battlefields, infantry lined up in neat rows--just awaiting to be mowed down by the massed artillery fire and the machinegun fire. I think this movie does an excellent job in showing some of the terrible tragedies that were strewn on German, British, Australian, Frainch and American soldiers.

[ 06 May 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

WELL SAID CARL....BUT DONT FORGET "PICKETTS CHARGE" AND "COLD HARBOR"....SEEMS LIKE TACTIC'S ARE ALWAYS BEHIND CHANGEING WEAPON INOVATIONS.

 

I had thought of the Civil War, but didnt feel like dragging it into the picture. As for Picketts Charge, that was a case of not being clear on specific orders. Nevertheless, Lee took full blame for the destruction of Picketts Division.