Israels Actions

I believe we all agree that intentional targeting of noncombatants is murder. However, I have not seen any evidence of Israel doing this. There is the possible exception of some non-military trucks I saw that were destroyed from the air, but their configuration could easily be confused for missile launchers as the pilots scream by at a few hundred miles per hour. So far, Israel's targets have been military, or infrastructure. That's all legal and legitimate according to the rules of war. I feel bad for the civilians that are in the vicinity of those bombs, but this is a tragic by-product of modern warfare.

On the other hand, what is Hezbollah doing? Pointing rockets at Haifa, and letting them go, indiscriminately, where they've been landing in residential and business districts. So, of the two sides, which do you think is showing less care and consideration for innocent civilians?

 

The extensive bombing of Lebanon has two reasons:

1. An effort to break the military force of Hezbollah, especially its newly (Iran-supplied) acquired ability to strike deep into Israel. After the withdrawal of Syria Hezbollah is under the direct control of Iran, Israels most deadly enemy after the fall of Iraq.

2. A deliberate and open attack on the economic infrastructure of a resurecting Lebanon after civil war/Syrian occupation. Prosperous and democratic Lebanon always has been the direct economic and political competitor of Israel.

In a thoroughly militarized society like Israel it is always necessary to have the army on your side. I don't think Olmert has the prestige (unlike general Rabin and general Sharon) to control the army. Now Israel's army is gaining control over foreign affairs.

 

Just to extend this issue... (as nobody else responded! )

Both cases above are criminal acts (provided the governments in question did not permit them). However, both are a civilians government agency abducting foreign civilians. With Hamas, a paramilitary force captured some soldiers...

 

Maybe an Israeli-prompted war is the only option left in that region. The Oslo peace process and the recent withdrawl of Gaza and the dismantling of settlements in the West Bank has failed to bring about even the slightest hint of peace. In the 1990s Israel extended recognition to the PLO, released from exile many of its men (including some terrorists), and offered to give up all land captured in the Six Days War. Undoubtedly Israel had some part to play in the deterioration of these negotiations, but mainly it was Arafat and his junta, those hard-headed f****** s*** f****** a******* (excuzez-moi!).

Israel, especially under Sharon, has tried hard to bring some stability to one of the holiest regions on Earth, but is that even possible when Israel is fighting an enemy that refuses to acknowledge their very right to exist? And once again it all boils down to religion and its impact on a society. Anti-Semitism in the Middle East is not going to cease, at least not for a very long time, because it is inspired by religion (under the direction of ayatollahs who use the Qu'ran for their own twisted agenda). Many Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere believe Israel and the Jews are not just threatening their moral life, but their spiritual life as well. Combating such a threat in the name of God is war's purest and holiest form, and as long as there are fanatical followers, that war may very well last forever.

 

The Romans had already forseen this 'problem' of this 'holy region' and decided to raze the city of Jeruzalem and gave non-Romans a restraining order for the centuries after the last Jewish rebellion. I prefer this 'Salomon option': if everybody is fighting for it, then nobody gets it.

Read more on the 'Roman solution': "After Bar Kokhba's defeat, Jerusalem was razed, Jews were forbidden to live there, and a new Roman city, Aelia Capitolina, was built in its place."

 

You realy don't want to know what i think about warmongers. :angry:

Now, now. Who killed Rabin? Was it Hamas, Hezbolah? Who provoked second intifada? I belive that Sharon had something to with it. Who held Arafat surrounded in his compound blasting some artillery/tank shells into it from time to time? Who is building a wall steling the land (1967 border looks a lot diffrent tha line of the wall)? That did a lot for peace negotiations did it? And settelments on the west bank were not beiing dismantled but enlarged.

Now it is a bit hard to demand this right if you don't extend the same right to the other side especcialy if you don't want to give something in return.

Now you embarrased yourself. Palestinians are semitic poeple and accusing them of antisemitism is oximoron don't you think?
As a side note, compare caricature of Jew (semite) from the Sturmer with Arafat or Sharon. Who had more similarities?
And Palestinians are not the onlyones motivated by religion here.
Hamas and Hezbolah are not interested in exporting islam as you belive, but have more or less narrow goals. Hamas getting their land back, and Hezbolah getting back at Israel for 20 years of occupation (and getting their poeple from Israeli jails).
About twisted agendas one has to look no further than some neocons and christian fundamentalists in the US. They have a lot in common with ayatollahs, probably more then you think.

Religion is bread of poor and of those without any possibilities for better life. Try to put yourself into the "skin" of a avarage Palestinian. No normal higher schooling ( yes schools are bombed), almost no medical/health facilities (becouse doctors can't get adequate schooling), almost no water (for Palestinians water is mostly rationed), can't get work, if you would live in Jerusalem you as a Palestinian can't get building permit (even if Isrelis destroyed your house "by mistake"), Israeli soldiers can arest you without just couse.... If you had to live like that what would you do?

 

Standard Roman solution. They did the same with Kartagena.

 

TISO:
I'd be looking for ways for my family to immigrate to the United States.
(Big Smile)
We were founded on religious freedom...

Tim

 

But Us wouldn't give you a visa, since you are Palestinian and probably have Mosad file. Plus US don't take just anyone.

 

You didn't answer this question TISO.

 

Those Pilgrim Fathers were really religious freaks. New England was hell for everyone who did not share their brand of protestantism. They even dragged people naked in chains through the snow to make them denounce their 'heresy'.

Many English protestants sought refuge in New Amsterdam, where the Dutch had built a more civilized settlement, from which fertile civic culture New York -one of the greatest cities in history- grew.

Religion should be on a short leash, just like in Turkey or China.

 

Both are equaly bad. It is the same if you fire unguided rocket hoping to hit a town or intentionamly droping guided bomb direcly to specific civilian target. Only difference is in effect. To me it is not the same if one kills 30 or 300 civilians.

 

Since we are looking at intent do you consider these actions as equally culpable: a policeman shooting at a bank robber accidentally hits a civilian and kills him; a gunman walks into a crowded restaraunt and begins shooting people at random because he was disgruntled with the service?

 

Of course Israel has a lot of blame in why the Second Infitada was started and why no peace accord pacificed the situation. All I'm saying is that at least Israel tried, that's all. They are a democratic and polarized nation with a relatively powerful army; they are prone to violent mood swings. This is no excuse whatsoever for some of the actions taken against the Arab people, such as the 1981 bombing of an Iraqi nuclear power plant and the brutal slaying of Muhammad al-Durah in 2000. Even with these disappointing facts and many more like them, I don't believe they're as disgusting as strapping on a suit of plastic explosive and blowing up oneself on a bus or in a crowded cafe. Do you believe you could hold your temper under such threats? And now under constant rocket attack by Hezbollah et al? The Israelis have shown some considerable restraint in the current incursion (or that's what I've gatherd so far), probably to lessen civilian casualties and scare off Hezbollah or at least call off their rocket attacks and return the captured soldiers.

But Israel was going to give some things in return. The West Bank and Gaza, a capital in East Jeruselum, recognition of PLO forces to arm and control borders, and some peace to the region. Palestinian bargin chips included not bombing Israel anymore and bringing peace to the region.

Embarrased? Not really. Maybe it's my education, but I'm inclined to use anti-Semitism when refering to hatred towards people of Judaism (which, if technicalites are counted, includes Christianity and Islam, but in this context the 3 languages are called the Abrahamic Religions). Languages in the Middle East are refered to as Semitic.

TISO, let us not resort to putting words in each others' mouths. Israel's destruction and the reclaimation of the land Israel encompesses have nothing to do with exporting Islam but with protecting it (or that's the idea anyways). And American neo-conservatives/religous fundamentalists are not the a-holes in question (before we get into that conversation I'm going to have to have a few more beers).

You're right, I don't because I am not one. I am merely an observer, pointing out the obvious because that's all I can do. By those terms, you must think I march goosestep down the street calling for arms against Africa! :lol:

 

Israel has managed to kill four unarmed observers. Initial reports say that their bunker was hit by a guided weapon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5217176.stm

Sounds like a really crappy detail to find yourself in the middle of a warzone without any backup.

No point hoping something positive comes of this incident. The Israelis seem to have the bit firmly between their teeth.

 

It is by the way not the first time they killed UN-representatives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Bernadotte#Assassinated_in_Jerusalem_by_Lehi

The commentary that time sheds an interesting light on the present situation: "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission.."

 

I think Israel has a good reason. They've been suffering rocket attacks and suicide bombers for years. The only problem is that they don't seem to be worying about who they injure. Then again, it's difficult to hit an enemy so mixed into the population like hezbullah (spelled wrong). And as far a firing rockets from houses...they're terrorists, they don't care who they hurt as long as it aceeves thier goals- fear. of going anywhere.

And i don't care who took it from whom. How the hell the Pakistani's thnk gaza stip is essentially thiers. It's not near the border ans if they intend to puch Israel into the sea, cutting them off at the coast won't help.

 

This report also sheds an interesting light on the situation:

link to story:


http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

 

If you seen your neighbour being mugged in the street by a couple of really strong guys and you are with a group fo friends woudl you help your neighbour? or would you let him get mugged?
That is pretty much what was going on but instead of a wallet or money it was land

 

Just feeding more info in...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/5216708.stm