Japanese Incursions Into Russia

How come the Japanese couldn't muster a force like Hitler did with Barbarossa?

 

And what economic supples and oil they wanted were all to the south and not in Russia. And then there was also the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact between them signed on 13 Apr 1941

 

They had nothng to gain by doing so.

 

Not to mention that the Japanese did not have the industrial capacity to sustain a campaign in Russia and in the CBI/Pacific at the same time. They also could not produce the same amount of tanks,aircraft,artilley and AT guns like the Axis had in Barbarossa.Nor keep them supplied.

 

And they had thier asses handed to them in 1939 when they attacked the Soviets.

 

Japan was part of the Axis. I thought you knew way more than me?

 

Being a member of the Axis means next to nothing in this context. They only rarely shared anything between themselves, and only in Europe could even the Italian force be of any "aid" to the Germans. And that is doubious as well, they were more of a hinderance than a help.

When the Molotov Ribbentrop pact was signed the Japanese felt extremely betrayed by the Nazis, since they and the Italians had joined Hitler in the Anti-Commintern Pact. He turned on the aggreement when he signed the Pact with the Soviets. It was shortly after that signing the Japanese really decided they were never going to trust the Nazi governement in much of anything. They couldn't invade the Soviet territory, they didn't have the "stuff", the men, or the need to do so.

 

hi brndirt1 , I took the liberty of removing the word "wimpy" when you mentionend the Italian army. There are maybe more diplomatic ways to describe their army wasn't as successfull as the Germans.

 

Not a problem, I was writting in a hurry and should have been more diplomatic myself. Poorly led and equipped would certainly have been closer to the truth of the matter and not an insult to the Italian soldiers themselves. Sorry 'bout that chief!

 

The Japanese had no need of a force like Hitler's.

They were primarily interested in China and SE Asia where the Barbarossa force would be next to useless. In many ways, the Japanese forces in China were far better adapted to that theater than Hitler's force was in the Soviet Union. It's noteworthy that the Japanese forces in China never suffered a major defeat in battle as the German forces did repeatedly in the Soviet Union.

How come the Germans weren't able to do as well in the Soviet Union as the Japanese were in China?

 

Actually the Japanese did fight the Russians in Mongolia and the Russians defeated their Northern army. Japan could have built up a force and used air power to help the Germans conquer Russia however after their losses in the skirmishes I can't say I blame them for not getting involved.

 

That's pretty much beside my point.

The Nomonhan war was in 1939, two years after Japan became heavily involved in a full scale war with China. The Imperial Japanese Army was focused, some might say obsessed, with subduing the Chinese, and turned all of their efforts in that direction. Because the Soviets had handed the Japanese a costly defeat, they weren't much interested in helping the Germans fight the Soviet Union. Earlier, Germany had entered into a neutrality pact with the Soviets without so much as informing the Japanese, and then Hitler had violated the neutrality pact and again failed to inform his Japanese "allies" of his intention to attack the Soviets. As a result, the Japanese (and everyone else by this time) did not trust him or feel obligated to come to Germany's aid.

Just a historical note; Japanese airpower wouldn't have been much help to Germany, anyway, it didn't have the range to significantly hurt the USSR, and in any case, the Japanese air forces had their hands full trying to stem the American onslaught in the Pacific.

As you say, it's difficult to blame the Japanese for not getting involved in Hitler's extremely ill-advised adventure in the Soviet Union. It's ironic that Hitler's disregard for his allies led to the situation where the very opponent that eventually crushed him received a substantial amount of war aid from the US through the territorial waters of his Axis "ally". LOL!

 

Well I agree with his Staff telling him it was not a good idea but according to these letters Hitler pleaded for oil and Stalin never responded. We all know Hilter invaded for the oil and the bolshevik threat was just a smoke screen. (Although they were a threat to Hitler)

 

Bless ignorance. There was a trade agreement between Germany and Soviet Union signed at the same time of the famous German-Soviet Pact, whereby both countries had agreed on an exchange of a number of goods.

Quoting the source below:

These were the initial quantities agreed, and which the Soviet Union was scrupulously sending. There is even the episode told in Paul Carrell's book (Scorched Earh) whereby the German troops let pass the last goods train crossing the Soviet-Polish border in the eve of Barbarossa.

There were other cooperation agreements of which I don't have the details present at the moment, but I remember also in Paul Carrell's the soldiers amazement at discovering in Soviet depots Pz III tanks and 8.8 FlaK guns purchased before the war. Also there had also been transfers of naval vessels from Germany to the Soviet Union, I can't recall which and have no time to do proper research (Prinz Eugen? Lützow?)

The fact is that it was not necessary to invade the Soviet Union to obtain food and raw materials, as the Soviet Union was already supplying these under the ongoing trade agreements.

In summary Germany would be much better off if it had stuck to the agreement and not invade, at least it was getting it's supplies cheap, but some people have wet dreams.

German–Soviet Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soviet–German relations before 1941 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Well, now you're getting off into a justification of why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and that really doesn't matter in the question of why Japan didn't help the Germans.

Fact is, Hitler due to his frequent lying, double dealing, and breaking of treaties, was regarded by everyone, even his so-called "allies", as a bit of a loose cannon. Nobody trusted him or Germany, and the Japanese weren't going to stick their neck out to save his bacon.

The Japanese had their own dreams of conquest and were playing the same game as Hitler, observing treaties only so long as it was to their advantage. So both Hitler and the Japanese got what they deserved; unreliable allies, they couldn't trust or depend on. Essentially, both Germany and Japan were fundamentally weak countries which had no business playing in the big leagues, that is why both gambled on short wars in which they hoped to grab all they could and hold on, bidding to become powerful. It didn't, and in the end, couldn't work.

 

Wait a sec, I never justified anything. All I said is that I watched a documentary on the History channel where they said Hitler wrote letters to Stalin demanding oil. I also said he used the bolshevik threat as a smoke screen and that he really just wanted the oil, which means he lied to his own people. I would have disagreed with Barbarossa back then as well. I wonder if Hitler knew about the Japanese losses against the Soviets? maybe he would have postponed Barbarossa if he knew how futile it was.

 

I wasn't accusing you of justifying Barbarossa, just pointing out that the reasons for Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union didn't really have anything to do with why the Japanese didn't get involved.

Whether Hitler wrote letters to Stalin pleading for more oil is a question which does not really interest me. As another poster pointed out, Germany already had a trade treaty with the Soviet Union which included specific deliveries of oil. It would appear that the documentary you watched on The History Channel (again a very questionable source of historical information) was merely reporting an undocumented historical theory. Hitler reportedly had a number of reasons for attacking the Soviet Union, any one of which would have sufficed to get him in deep trouble.

As for Hitler having detailed information about the Nomonhan war, probably not. Both Japan and the Soviet Union were extraordinarily secretive about such things, and German intelligence about the Soviet Union was very limited. The Japanese were extremely humiliated by their defeat at the hands of the Russians, and probably never gave out the true details even to their "allies". And, of course, Japan did not make the mistake of becoming an ally of Germany until September, 1940, with the signing of the Tri-Partite Pact. The Soviet Union was invited to join the Pact, but by that time Hitler was already deviously planning his attack on the Soviets.

 

Cough, cough, gasp! Now why on earth should anyone say a thing like that? DA, are you still interested in that drum of Genuine Snake Oil we were talking about the other day? I have only very few left!

 

Sorry, Za, somebody just tried to unload a truckload of genuine Snake Oil on me. But I could use a pallet of authentic Fountain of Youth Elixir/Hair Restorer, and a gross of those bona fide Montezuma's Treasure Maps you mentioned.