Guys this is doing my head in. A moderator on what was formally the third reich forum is claiming that a King Tiger can traverse its turret in all of 9 seconds at maximum engine revs. Achtung Panzer.com, although not always accurate is quoting 19 seconds at maximum RPM, which is pretty much the same for most sources I've seen on the web. I know all you guys have proper books on the subject so I'll let you come up with some material to back this up or quash it. Here is the link: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=38833&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The Tiger II has a turret rotation of 19 seconds for 360 degrees at 2,000 rpm engine speed (high speed traverse) and 77 seconds at 1,000 rpm (low speed). Hand traverse takes 700 revolutions of the traverse handwheel for 360 degrees. It is patently absurd to think that a tank of this era, particularly one with such a large and heavy turret, could achieve 40 degrees a second of rotation. Oh, I looked up the Leopard II: 12 - 13 seconds for 360 degrees. M60A3 15 seconds. Leopard I 12 - 13 seconds. T 55 21 seconds. Chieftain: 400 mil/sec (trust the Brits to be weird) M1 about 12 sec. Just so your bases are covered. Remember, quote freely but credit fully. [ 30. December 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: T. A. Gardner ]
That's what I thought, may I quote your references? What are they, cause this guy is not going to budge unless he gets a proper source thrown at him.
My references for this are: German Tanks of World War Two 'In Action', George Forty, Blandford Press, 1987, p 140. Forty references: Technical Intelligence Summary, School of Tank Technology, Royal Army, 7 Feb 1945. Jane's Modern Battle Tanks 2nd ed., Christopher Foss, Jane's, London, 1986
Ok, let's go at this a different way. Assume he is correct. What conditions are necessary to get this rate of rotation? 1. The engine must be a 3000 rpm, 500 rpm (or roughly 20% over the safe rpm of the engine). Ok, we "redline" the engine. 2. Since it is reasonable to assume that the tank is not moving at maximum speed (a real rarity with tanks in combat in WW 2), the driver must have disengaged the clutch while over-reving the engine. Of course, if the tank is moving at maximum speed the engine is grossly overloaded by the combination of speed and rpms being used. 3. The gunner is slewing the turret at maximum rate of turn. 4. The hydraulic system doesn't explode, blow a gasket or any other problem during this period as the only way to increase rotation rate beyond the 19 second period would be to continue to increase hydraulic pressure (and therefore force to turn the motor faster). It is far more likely that the hydraulic system has a pressure relief bypass once it reaches a maximum pressure (eg the 19 second rate is the maximum regardless of additional engine speed). Would this be useful if it could be done? Probably not. The tank is at (or almost at) a halt during the slew of the turret. The engine is reving at a speed not likely to enduce long engine life. The tank cannot move while engaged in this practice. If the engine siezes or throws a rod or some other nasty happenstance during this the tank is nothing but an immobile target. On top of this, the gunner is unlikely to be able to control the slew rate adequitely to bring the gun anything more than roughly in line with the target. Fine manual adjustment will still be required. More likely, the Tiger's typical rate of rotation is somewhere between 19 and 77 seconds dependent on vehicle speed. The British report states that "the turret rate of rotation is very slow." Essentially, the point is moot. If the 9 second rate is achievable, then it is at the expense of tactical mobility and vehicle reliablity. I doubt that many crews would be willing to trade their safety for a few seconds faster turret rotation. Let me add as an addendum: The M60A2 has one of the fastest turret rotations of any major battle tank ever. It uses a 2000 psi hydraulic system. It's 360 degree time is 9.1 seconds. Reference: Main Battle Tanks, Part I, War Data #14, Esgel-Dramit Publishing Ltd, Hod Hasharon, Israel 1984 Patton, A History of the American Main Battle Tank Volume 1, H.P. Hunnicutt, Presidio Press, Navato, CA, 1984 This makes the 9 second figure for the Tiger II even more unlikely. [ 31. December 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: T. A. Gardner ]
Thank you TA, as usual, impeccable data and references. I'll put this to the boys at axisforums but I think that, useless or no, the mere fact that it can be done will mean that the moderator will always be RIGHT. No matter how stupid it is. I'm sure the Tiger II will be able to do 60 mile and hour as well, without tracks and down a 70 degree glacier, but it makes just about as much sense as turning your turret that fast.
Well, here's another source that may refute the 9 second rotation rate entirely: According to "Panzers in Saumur #1, Dai Nihon Kaiga Pub., Toyko 1989, Hiroshi Ichimura, ed. The running Henschel turreted Tiger II (originally of S. Pz Abt 503 2 Kp. # 233) at this museum has a maximum rotation speed of 19 seconds when the high speed gear of the hydraulic traverse is engaged. I might suggest contacting the Saumur museum in France for confirmation on this since they could provide a definitive answer having an operational Tiger II. The address there is Saumur Musee des Blindes E.A.A.B.C.-49409 Saumur Cedex France
No sirrah, this isn't being weird, this is milspeak! This means 400 miliradians/sec, that is, in a second the turret rotates through 0.4 radians. As you need pi radians (3.1416) to make a full circumference, this means you take a staggering 7.8secs to do 360degrees! Are you sure your source is correct? Cheers,
It was just the only one listed in Jane's that way. I suspect that the turret rotation is closer to 14 seconds as several other sources give that as its rate.
No sirrah, this isn't being weird, this is milspeak! This means 400 miliradians/sec, that is, in a second the turret rotates through 0.4 radians. As you need pi radians (3.1416) to make a full circumference, this means you take a staggering 7.8secs to do 360degrees! Are you sure your source is correct? Cheers, </font>[/QUOTE]You need 2Pi to make a full traverse 15.7 seconds, still impressive for what was the most armoured tank in NATO till the Leo 2
