Libya no-fly zone

Jon maybe not slanderous at all, we westerners and will tell you this is fact we do not understand the eastern mind. Maybe the word democracy needs to be changed to something else as it is so western. we discussed this sometime ago during the 9/11 disaster in the States. Libya as in Iraq once Khad is removed, blown up, shot or leaves Tripoli the area will be under tribal diligence.

 

the naivity of certain persons never will stop to surprise me .
Democracy is a very recent western notion (and,there were times,where in a lot of western countries democracy was despised,and replaced by goosestepping)
Democracy is as far understandable for the Muslims as it would be for the Martians .
The Moslims have their own culture and are convinced that he is superior to the western one.
But of course,there still are people thinking that the western values and aspirations are universal (they are NOT)and that they are superior (most people think they are not)and that they have to be spreaded over the world (a very out -of-date and dangerous idea)and that the USA have a mission (I will not say what I am thinking of people who are convinced they have a mission)

 

With respect to both sides, I feel there is merit to both arguements. Modern Western Democracy as we (forum members) understand it is simply beyond the vast majority of Islamic nations and people. Not because they are ignorant or lazy or any such reason, but because for a modern western style democracy to flourish you need institutions and concepts that are either lacking or misunderstood.

Things needed for a modern western democracy,

1) Educated Voter
2) Indipendent Free Press
3) Seperation of Church, State, and Political Party
4) Checks and Balances, Executive-Legislative-Judicial
5) Military obediant to the civilian government
6) Free, secret ballots with little chance for fraudulant vote casting.

There are others I'm sure, but these seem the most important. Yes even in our democracy's things do not always work perfectly, but they usually work well enough.

For most Islamic nations, they lack 2 or more of these things, and the ones that remain do not work very well. That being said all is not lost as some form of proto-democracy is within their reach. Our own early democracy was hardly a perfect instrument, allowing only landed males the vote for example. It is true we cannot lead the region into a democratic utopia, but we can offer guidence when they are willing to listen. When they will not, then it is best to stand back and let them slaughter one another until they tire of the madness and are willing to seek another way.

 

Well,IMHO,all these things are lacking in the ME.Is this bad ? It is not on us to ask this question .It is their country .If their decision is to refuse all western influences,so be it .We have to abstain,and not meddle,and not offer guidence,because only children need guidence.If we are considering them as children who need guidence (remember the White Man's Burden :your new caught people,half children,half animals),we will obtain nothing .Thus :no meddling in Libya,no protesting when women are stoned .

 

I would add lack of foreign influence in govermnent decisions to that list, and that's were the idea of "exporting democracy" shows it's limits. There is no way you can call democratic a government that heavily depends on foreign help, and as a results is more likely to listen to it's foreign "partners" as to it's citizens. Same goes, but to a more limited extent, where heavy support by foreign companies exists.
Personally I would not include "educated voters" in the "theoretical" requirements, though it is close to a necessity for a democracy to actually work.

BTW democracy is not a recent western notion as it's been around since at least ancient Greece, "one man one vote" is very recent but it's not the same thing.

Back to our topic a boat with around 300 Libian refugeees sank tonight, less than sixty people were rescued despite it happening within sight of an Italian coast guard boat. K's troops have retaken Brega and fighting around Misurata is still going on. Criticism of NATO "not helping enough" by the rebels is apparently on the rise.

 

I fully agree that we cannot provide enlightenment through the generous application of Guided munitions, but they are not 'children or animals' but people that do not know something. As a supervisor at my employer I have given both training and guidence to fully fuctional adults who's only limitation was they did not know how the the job they were hired for. I agree also that they need to ask for the help first for it to have any meaning to them. We cannot expect them to apear fully formed western style Jeffersonian democrat's, but if they can bridge the gap between where thety are now, and where we are, then any progress however small is a movement forward.

 

one point:why should we have the mission to export democracy ?(it's not like exporting cars) Exporting democracy( in a country without democracy)will mean,and result to replace the native institutions by imported ones (democracy).The people in these countries have an other word for "exporting democracy":neo-colonialism .
Is "exporting democracy" not the same as imposing democracy ?
Last point :ancient Greece was as much democratic as ...Libya,

 

You know how much use the islamists could make of your post? (especially of your last sentence):there is a gap between them and us,and,if they can bridge the gap,there will be progress .
Translation by the islamists:they are considering us and our civilisation,as backward .

 

It's less to do about 'Exporting Democracy' than it is about protection of humanity. As it is now Libya is ruled by a corrupt mechanism and if the Libyan people want help effecting change then I am all for it; regardless of their what political model they choose.
Suspension of Libya from Human Rights Council welcomed | Amnesty International
Unanimous Security Council vote a crucial moment for international justice | Amnesty International
Middle East and North Africa: Stop supply of arms used in protest killings | Amnesty International
Libyan leader must end spiralling killings | Amnesty International

 

TOS, I must disagree with you, but to be fair my point about 'Educated Voter' was flawed as I went for simplicity rather than precision. What I meant by 'educated' was a voter who understood both the value and importance of their vote. A university proffessor who is too apathetic to vote is as much use to the body politic as a corpse in a graveyard. (Please note the exception being Chicago where the deceased is a highly valued voting block )

As for modern western democracy I refer to what has been observed in the last 100 years, more or less. Every natural born citizen who reached an age of majority (18-21 years) reguardless of gender, race, economic status or religous beliefs and not a criminal has the right to vote. In the democracy'y of the past some element of society was excluded to keep power to a certain part of the people.

 

talking about protection of humanity in international politics ,is the same as preaching chastity in a brothel.And the result will be the same ne will be booed.

 

It's obvious you have your own agenda in discussing this topic and it obviously does not include reasonable debate.
Good Day.

 

We done a good thing we saved lives I think…
Even tho it cost half a billion dollars we stoped a mad man it's just my opinion.

 

I have no agenda(I have other things to do with my time) :I only am oppossing the theory that (for unknown reasons,unless that it has a mission)the West should intervene in the Third World .

 

I'm still injecting "my" tax money in this.

 

You obviously do.

That's rather a straw man as we have supplied numerous reasons for doing so in this case. Your response has been nonsecetaurs, straw men, evasion, and logical fallacy. It's clear that this is essentially a religious veiw point on your part and no amount of fact and logic will impact it.

 

Have Gaddafi's tanks gone underground? | World news | The Guardian

 

Some strategypage.com links relevant to the topic:
Hellfire And Brimstone
Gadhafi Shifts Tactics: Pick-up Trucks and Human Shields
Libya: Disunited We Stall
Algeria: Threat Of Unemployment Defeats The Revolution
Leadership: The Afghan Syndrome Comes To Libya
Counter-Terrorism: Libyans Ordered To Attack NATO