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Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Bundesluftwaffe, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Ah,the old ;tu quoque argument .:we suffered from the Soviets,thus we have the right to kill Poles and Jews .

    Besides: the famine was not man-made .This has been discussed in the past .
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Not a tu quoque argument at all...

    While you keep venting your spleen on the Ukrainians, I am only reminding you that the Russians were far worse.

    As such, your "poor Russians" argument tends to fall on deaf ears.


    Your opinion...And discussions in the past have proven your opinion to be a false one.
     
  3. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    As we all know, NOTHING in the USSR - as in Hitler's Germany - happened without the soviet regime's intention, planning and support. Any Eastern "Kristallnacht" happened because Stalin's regime specifically wanted so. Stalin's regime is the one to blame here too.

    We could also talk about the role of the Russians in some of these events below. Here's just something to start with. Naturally there's many more examples of ethnic persecutions in the USSR/Russia, also on-going ones.

    "Looking at the entire period of Stalin's rule, one can list: Poles (1939–1941 and 1944–1945), Romanians (1941 and 1944–1953), Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians (1941 and 1945–1949), Volga Germans (1941–1945), Ingrian Finns(1929–1931 and 1935–1939), Finnish people in Karelia (1940–1941, 1944), Crimean Tatars, Crimean Greeks(1944) and Caucasus Greeks (1949–50),[12] Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Karapapaks, Far East Koreans(1937), Chechens and Ingushs (1944).

    Shortly before, during and immediately after World War II, Stalin conducted a series of deportations on a huge scale which profoundly affected the ethnic map of the Soviet Union.[13] It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics.[14] By some estimates up to 43% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition.[15]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
     
  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Not my opinion,but the opinion of Michael Ellman.
     
  5. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    This is of-topic : the point is that the Ukrainians are not the Saints you are telling us
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Which is refuted by R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft.


    Dueling authors...Great! I love this game!
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Be carefull LJAD. Takao is reading CNN and he knows exactly which side should be supported.
     
  8. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Hardly off-topic, since you were the one arguing about the Ukrainian tendency of persecuting minorities, when in reality it's the Russians who have always done it and continue doing so.

    I never claimed the Ukrainians being "Saints" - just that they haven't been persecuting the ethnic Russians in the Eastern Ukraine nor in Crimea, as Russia would like us to believe.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    CNN...Yeah, sure...that is the last place I would go to read up on international news/foreign affairs.
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    But then again, neither do I use Pravda as my sole source of information either.
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Please link any post claiming the Ukrainians are Saints.
     
  12. lwd

    lwd Ace

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  13. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Sounds like things are going all that great in Russia unlike we were told by the originator of this thread:
    http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/articles/20151021.aspx
    Economy is slumping but governent spending up. The latter might be a good thing if it were infrastructure but it's mostly military indeed infrastructure is suffering even worse from the sounds of it.
     
  14. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Hello Lwd,

    I think there is little doubt that the Russiam economy has suffered due to a multitude of factors mainly a dip in oil prices and the sanctions placed on her. This is only temporary, however; Russia has been through much worse not to mention that she is not by herself, European countries are feeling the pinch as well.

    I do have an a few qualms concerning your article ;)

    "The FSA are the largest secular group...", this made me smile. One of the main criticisms the US has received as of late regarding Syria was being unable to explain who these moderates whom the US is arming are and how do we know that these weapons won't fall into the wrong hands? It has however; become increasingly easier (thanks to the growing number of whistleblowers) to get a much clearer picture of what is happening on the ground. Numerous sources confirm that the fighters within these groups have intermingled; fighters fight for numerous sets not to mention that the FSA can't do anything without getting approval first from the Al Nusra front which is far large stronger. It's well document that the FSA virtually pays a tax to Al Nusra usually in form of weapons precisely the US made TOW anti tank missile. It is this missile that poses the greatest threat to Assad's tanks and Al Nusra is the only Jihadist group which posses them. This is one of the reasonsw they were bombed first by Russia.

    I'm also certain that the Patriarch of Syria will disagree with the "FSA" are secular assessment.

    The comment on Cubans in Syria was also entertaining.

    The comment on Russia acknowledging her indifference to civilians casualties is mind blowing. This is just pure rubbish. Russia has done the exact opposite and openly spoke and shown in detail how they do everything possible in order to prevent such from occurring. In fact Russia has been so open about the topic and her stance, one has to ask, how on earth can such an assessment even be made with everything that's out there in the contradicting the latter?
     
  15. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    Since China is rattling her carrier sabre near Latakia, I think it is pretty clear where Russia, Assad and Khameini are getting some back channel loans and plenty of subsidized ordnance from, any way, Russia has to turn over the old weapons inventory too make way for the newer jdams and bunker busters.

    Just an observation but it's funny the way we (USA) think we can just help take Assad out or any one else we don't like, but Russia is not allowed to have an ally in the theater to offset our eavesdropping of the Bosphorous, Russias southern flank (the Cabal's Plan) and the Incirlik strategic base. We want it all our way, which would be nice, but not fair so Putin must stand up to it. It wouldn't be so bad if the mopes we always back didn't turn out to be uncontrollable dirt bags like the guys they replaced sigh, Lucy pulled the football out from in front of us again. Psychiatric help 5 cents, ah the good old 60's.


    I for one am just thankful he did not roll armor through Kursk, Orel Salient and on to Kiev. Forcing our hand on another dangerous front. Back room deals, the stuff dreams are made off, - Samuel Spade.
     
  16. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Of course it's temporary but the secondary effects in particular look to be increasing the long term damage. Certainly Russia has been through worse but that's not saying much is it? The other European countries don't seem to be having nearly as much problems from what I can see.

    I'd like to see some sources on the above.

    That's rather the point though isn't it. Russia isn't going after ISIS they are supporting Assad contrary to their claims.

    Really? Why?

    What they say and what they do seem to be rather different things. Indeed using as many dumb bombs as they are clearly isn't doing "everythig possible" especially when used near residential areas. The raids that seam to be aimed at hospitals and ambulance services are rather telling in that regard.
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Just noticed that this is the wrong place for our discussion. Mods, please feel free to transfer as you see fit (Syria) thread lingering around seems a good fit . :D

    I am not sure to what "secondary effects" you are referring to. Can you elaborate please?

    I can try

    For the last couple of months I have posted numerous sources (thanks to whistleblowers) claiming the following..... Many were simply shrugged off as prapoganda. Let's give it another shot?

    https://www.rt.com/usa/312050-dia-flynn-islamic-state/

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/03/24/video-shows-al-qaedas-jabhat-al-nusra-using-u-s-provided-tow-anti-tank-missiles-in-syria/#undefined

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-al-nusra-jihadists-capture-us-weaponry-moderate-rebels-1472864

    I remember you've used "The Daily Beast" as a source in the past figured it would be fitting

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/u-s-admits-we-can-t-protect-syrian-allies-from-russia-s-bombs.html

    Of course Russia is supporting Assad and such has been the case for 70 years. This has never been a secret as a matter of fact Russias response to any Western intervention was predicted 60 years ago by the British Intelligence...

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151023/1028974526/Russian-Syria-Involvement-Revealed-1957-Note.html

    Russia doesn't seem to distinguish between rebel/terrorist groups operating in Syria. Her objective is clear: treat all who are not government forces as hostiles. Kurds have been the only exception until recent as the FSA has just announced that it is willing to hold talks with Assad alongside Moscows supervision. After initially refusing Moscows offer, the FSA seemed to have folded. Reason? It is rumored this is due to Russia's announcement that she will now be stepping up her air offensive from an average 50 per day to 200-300 per day. Again, this can all be easily obtained using a simple search engine.


    Syria is the last remaining secular state in the region (not including Israel as its not a Muslim state). The Orthodox Church has had a home in Syria since the 4th century. Assad and Aphrem II, Patriarch of Syria have met on numerous occasions to discuss the Syrian crises and work alongside each other. The individuals fighting Assad are massacring the Christian population. The same Patriarch sent a letter to the EU pleading with them to stop arming and supporting the numerous rebel groups who are murdering them.

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/syrian-christian-leader-tells-west-stop-arming-terror-groups-who-are-massacring-our-people/207214/

    I can only comment on what I have personally come across on the topic. What I have not seen are "dumb bombs". I have also failed to come across anything remotely resembling Russia bombing civilian areas, hospitals or ambulance services. Could you be more specific? Which civilian areas? What hospital(s)?
    Russian precision strikes can easily be viewed on YouTube. On one of the clips you can even see Jihadis hiding in and around Mosques along with their weapons and hardware. They were not engaged.

    Ironically, all this news in Syria quieted everything surrounding Ukraine with some journalists even beginning to seriously question the original nerrative in the West of Russian aggressive presence in Ukraine. With some commenting "Russia is in Syria (legally) and her presence is felt. Not the case in Ukraine".

    I will try to locate that article. An interesting read.
     
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  18. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Things like foreign investors and companies pulling out of Russia and degradation of the infrastructure.

    Can't get to the first one for some reason. The second and third just mention that Al Nusra has TOWs and suggest that they came from a party other than FSA as you were suggesting. They do absolutly nothing to support FSA paying a "tax" to Al Nusra. Since both the other are at least on occasion engageing ISIL it also pretty much gives lie to the Russian claim that they were there to fight ISIL.

    As with most of their articles I've read on the topic seems to be a pretty good one. Makes the point that the US has decided not to shoot down Russian planes. Probably a good idea although it would be tempting to send a few stiners to certain parties. Also illustrates we've had some problems with our efforts there but that's hardly news at this point as there have been numerous politicians and news articles over here on that point. Good summary though.

    Even 15 or 20 years ago he wasn't gassing his own people though was he? Of course Putin doesn't really care about that as they aren't his supporters. Then there's the little matter of Russia trying to justify their intervention as an anti ISIL effort which once they were in place they abandoned almost any pretext of ... no that's not quite right they claimed they were hitting mostly ISIL targets when they were only spending about 20% of their efforts on ISIL. It does make it clear just how far you can trust Putin and his government.

    That's not quite right though is it. They may be against all rebel groups but possibly the largest terrorist group operating in Syria is the Assad governent who clearly have Russias backing.

    Turkey is still a secular state and in the region. Iraq could arguably be considered one as well.

    If you haven't come across it it's because you aren't looking. Probably relying too much on Russian sources (which in the case of anything relevant to the Russian government have become almost completely untrustworthy). Here are some in regards to dumb bombs:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/01/air-force-senior-intelligence-officer-russia-is-using-dumb-bombs-in-its-syria-bombing-campaign/
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/02/russia-is-using-old-dumb-bombs-making-syria-air-war-even-more-brutal.html#
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article37967745.html
    http://time.com/4059442/russia-bombing-syria-isis-assad/#4059442/russia-bombing-syria-isis-assad/
    https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Russia-using-dumb-bombs-in-Syria
    http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/syria/articles/20151011.aspx
    and
    http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/articles/20151021.aspx
    As for Russian attacks hitting hospitals in Syria:
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/russias-bombing-of-syrian-hospitals-the-incredible-expanding-lie/5484771
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/22/three-syrian-hospitals-bombed-since-russian-airstrikes-began-doctors-say
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/23/middleeast/syria-hospital-attack-russia/
    http://www.newsweek.com/ngo-says-russian-airstrikes-hit-three-syrian-medical-facilities-two-days-380657?piano_t=1
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/27/russia-bombs-hospitals-lefties-shrug.html#
    http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2015/10/russias-bombing-of-syrian-hospitals.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11951963/Syrias-doctors-utterly-abandoned-after-Russian-air-strikes-hit-hospitals.html
    http://www.infowars.com/russian-airstrikes-hit-nine-hospitals-in-syria/
    and ambulances:
    http://warincontext.org/2015/10/06/why-are-the-russians-bombing-my-ambulances/
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027239101
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/06/why-are-the-russians-bombing-my-ambulances.html#

    Sounds pretty questionable to me but go ahead and link it if you can find it.
     
  19. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Just stumbled upon this one again...


    Seems the situation in Syria has changed dramatically and for the better or so it seems.
     
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Better if you are pro Iranian, pro Assad, or pro Putin. Not so much to the rest of the world.
     

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