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Nazi Stealth Plane that could have bombed NYC!

Discussion in 'Wonder Weapons' started by I♥Shermans, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. I♥Shermans

    I♥Shermans Member

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  2. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    I would certainly take all that with a very large grain of salt. The National Geographic people are in the business of producing entertainment....interesting entertainment. Historical accuracy is not something they are all that concerned with since it has no direct bearing on selling the product.

    As for the Germans being able to fly all the way to New York and back...well, maybe. The Horten bomber was only a drawing board idea at the end of the war. The US was actually developing the real thing (the B-36), although at a deliberately slow pace. The B-36 first flew in August, 1946, one year after the end of the war.

    But dropping a German atomic bomb on New York City just wasn't going to happen for the simple reason that Germany wasn't close to developing an A-bomb, and after 1942, wasn't even working toward such an end.
     
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  3. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    I actually think the Horten would have proved marginal in actual operational use had it achieved it. Northrop also did a great amount of work with flying wing designs (seems John Northrop was facinated by them). The jet propelled ones all exhibited similar problems in lateral stability. Earlier propeller driven aircraft like the XB 35 didn't have this tendency as the propeller torque corrected it while the XB 49 had serious problems with both lateral and line of flight stability (ie, yawing and porporsing).
    I have little doubt that the Horten brothers would have found their designs having similar problems at high speed.
     
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  4. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    That is too true T.A.Gardner, and until the advent of "fly by wire computer corrected" flight, all the wings suffered the same tendencies. The Horten Bros. plans were "pretty", but add "useless" to that and you have what they were; pretty useless.
     
  5. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Ho Hum
    Why are there never any TV programs on what Allied weapons the Axis would have faced if the war had go on to 1946.
     
  6. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Or maybe how some Axis weapons actually relied on prior pioneering work on the Allied side.
     
  7. Chesehead121

    Chesehead121 Member

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    V-2? V-1? ME-262, maybe, but it did come out a few weeks earlier than the Meteor, and was developed about the same time. It was a race for it, not a catch-up game.

    (And the reason there are no TV programs on allied weapons is because they weren't as stupid. People like Nazis doing stupid things and dying in the process.)
     
  8. I♥Shermans

    I♥Shermans Member

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    yeah this article did have a lot of ifs in it...
     
  9. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Well actually as has been pointed out here before the US's Dr. Goddard did alot of pioneer work that went into the German rocket program something to the tune of 200 patents.
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    V2's von Braun admitted he used Goddard's work, gimbaled nozzles, gyroscopic navigation, and the 214 Goddard patents were those he and both NACA and its replacement NASA used in their rockets. When he was arrested by the US he interrupted during his first interrogation that "we should be asking our own Dr. Goddard these questions, he was only expanding on his work." Von Braun was unaware that Dr. Goddard had passed away, and had been working on improving other rocket systems for the US Navy, not liquid fueled rockets.

    The V1 was an adaptation of a WW1 era French ram-jet, it also used the American engineer Kettering's patent for distance control. Kettering's patent was also WW1 era technology, and had been used on un-manned bi-planes which would have been propellor driven un-manned bombs. They didn't work all that well, but some of them did function well enough. They were never used in warfare.

    The Gloster Meteor actually proceeded the Me-262 into squadron deployment, so they were running "neck and neck" as to production. The Meteor was slightly slower, but much more reliable. It eventually became as fast, but not before the war ended.

    But that said; you are right "cheeshead121" in that the western allies probably wouldn't ever have deployed such "questionable" weapons systems unless they too were facing utter defeat. Even then their use might have been refused, and surrender accepted instead.
     
  11. Heinrich

    Heinrich Member

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    I wouldn't be too shure of that ..
    As there are reports of tests with working nukes , try a search on 'Ordruf' or 'Rügen'..
    hard proof ? dunno , but anything concearning V-waffen was immediately nicked by the Americans whenever they could get their hands on it and immediately made top secret material .. the truth will come out when all these still classified files are declassefied and open for research 50 years from now or so ..
    Offcourse there were plans for nuclear bombings after 42 ...what do you think the V2 was meant and developed for ?? Not for carrying leaflets ..the bomb was the 'wunderwaffe' Hitler was raging about all the time :)

    No ..I think the US bomb was only possibly because of German know-how ,so more the other way around.
    I personally do believe the bombs thrown on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were in fact jerry-bombs ..
    Another alarming fact is the capture of an Uboat full of radioactive material bound for japan in '45 too.
    As far as i know germans already had a large 4 engined bomber capable of reaching New York (FW200) ..and a special squad to fly ém (KG200). Cant give you a link but there are pics around of one of those NY reconnaissance flights .

    anyway ..the Hörten wasnt meant as an intercontinental bomber but it is a very interesting and beautifull plane and way ahead of its time ,thanks for the pics :D
     
  12. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    He, he, he. You are quite wrong, but I will leave that to the aviation and atomic enthusiasts. :D
     
  13. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Thank you so much I was having a bad nite and needed a good laugh which your post amptly provided !!!!!! LOL !!!!!!
     
  14. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    There is just so much wrong with this posting......
     
  15. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    As another poster mentioned, this is so wrong on so many levels it simply cannot be allowed to stand without challenge. I would suggest that, just for fun see if you (Heinrich) can find; The Farm Hall Transcripts. These were declassified in 1992. It clearly proves that the Nazis were years away from building the bomb.

    Werner Heisenberg was very candid when speaking to Hitler, and acknowledging the difficulties in producing an atomic device; "For the present I believe that the war will be over long before the first atom bomb is built."; quote from Werner Heisenberg (top Nazi nuclear scientist) in 1939. This probably assured Hitler that nobody else was working on one either, so it went onto the back burner as per funding and personnel in Germany.

    Then about three years, after multitudinous failures to build controllable reactor, the chief of research (Heisenberg) could honestly report to his Nazi bosses (July of 1943 that); "...though the work will not lead in a short time towards the production of practical useful engines (reactors) or explosives, it gives on the other hand the certainty that in this field the enemy powers cannot have any surprise in store for us." He was of course unaware that the Fermi reactor project had succeeded eight months earlier on Dec. 2nd of 1942 in Chicago, or that the plants to enrich non-fissionable U-238 ores into fissionable U-235 at Oak Ridge Tennessee, and Fermi reactors for production of plutonium at Hanford Washington were already under construction in the USA.

    To verify his "lack" of closeness to creating a bomb for the Nazis, I would recommend you see the article, Bomb Apologetics: Farm Hall, August 1945, by Jeremy Bernstein and David Cassidy in Physics Today, August 1995 (page 32.) . As well as; The American Scientist (May/June 1996, Volume 84, No. 3), and "The Farm Hall Transcripts: The German Scientists and the Bomb." New York Review of Books 13 Aug. 1992 (pp. 47-53). Hitler's Uranium Club: The Secret Recordings at Farm Hall. [US]: American Institute of Physics, 1995. And finally; ALSOS: The Failure of German Science. London: Sigma, 1947." Goudsmit, Samuel A. New York: Henry Schuman, 1947.

    Near the end of the war in Europe an Allied science intelligence unit captured Heisenberg and other German nuclear scientists, along with most of their papers and equipment. After the initial interrogations, American and British authorities detained Heisenberg and nine other German scientists for six months at an English country manor, Farm Hall near Cambridge, where their private conversations were secretly recorded, transcribed, and translated in part. The fascinating transcripts of their conversations, especially surrounding the news of the atomic bombing of Japan, were declassified (1992) and published.

    Not far into the 200-odd pages of the declassified Farm Hall transcripts comes the extraordinary moment when Werner Heisenberg and the nine other German nuclear scientists being held at a country house in England hear that an Allied atomic bomb has devastated the city of Hiroshima. The Allies' atomic weapon, according to the BBC Home Service announcer, has delivered "…as much explosive power as 2,000 of our great ten-ton bombs." Hidden microphones conveyed the voices of the German "guests" to a nearby listening room at Farm Hall, and so we have in the reports a record of their astonished reaction to this news. Heisenberg is heard to snort in derision and then responds by flatly rejecting the possibility that the bomb could have been a fission weapon. "Some dilettante in America who knows very little about it has bluffed them," he says. "I don't believe that it has anything to do with uranium."

    Even more informative, are the intense technical discussions that consumed the subsequent hours and days as the captive scientists tried to puzzle out how their Allied counterparts could have managed to do what they had concluded was beyond reach. Of particular interest, and the main subject of this article, is Heisenberg's informal estimate of the amount of uranium required for a bomb--the critical mass. Throughout the war Heisenberg seems to have believed that many tons of the rare isotope uranium-235 or of plutonium--an impossible quantity for any country to obtain--would be needed for a bomb, rather than the tens of kilograms actually required. "I consider it perfectly possible that they [the Allies] have about ten tons of enriched uranium," Heisenberg says, "but not that they can have ten tons of pure U-235."

    The physicists and engineers who had worked on the Nazi nuclear projects were NOT even in America or working on the Allied atomics, they were captives in Britain and being listened to when the first bomb exploded over Hiroshima. Pretty difficult to have ANYTHING to do with the Manhattan Project and the atomics when you are a prisoner thousands of miles away. The Farm Hall tapes clearly show that Werner Heisenberg and his German team did not even know how to calculate the critical mass in 1945, or construct a controllable reactor. Let alone build a bomb.

    BTW, the 1100 pounds (500 kilograms) of U-238, uranium oxide on that Untersee boot which surrendered to the allies was without doubt put into the pipeline for prodution of HEU U-235, but it wasn't included in any way in the gun-type uranium bomb which was dropped on Hiroshima. Even the 1100 TONS of uranium oxide which had been captured by the ALSOS team in Stuttgard before that shippment's capture had been shipped back to the US and put into the Oak Ridge system for purification, it never made it into the Little Boy bomb either.
     
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  16. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    This is wrong as well, and it wasn't a FW200 Kondor, the story is fiction and is about a Junkers Ju 390 flying to within 12 miles of the coast of New York was disinformation provided by a German POW. It has been repeated ad nauseum in Wikipedia, with a proviso of "rumored" being added at one time.

    "The fairy tale about the New York flight obviously started its tour through literature from England. It is first to be found in an intelligence report from August 11th, 1944, composed by the questioning of captured members of the German armed forces. A prisoner, who claimed having been photo assistant in Mont-de-Marsan, stated during his interview that 'a Ju 390 was with the FAGr 5 from January 6th, 1944, for about four weeks for trials. After some short-distance flights, a successful reconnoissance flight was made until a point in a distance of nearly 20 km off the American coast north of New York. Pictures were brought back, showing the coast in that distance.'"

    Translation from German of a passage from Die großen Dessauer. Junkers Ju 89, 90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott.

    Recent research has shown that while the Ju 390 did not have the physical ability to make this flight, it also proves that the single flying prototype was actually in Prague when the flight was supposed to have taken place. Hard to bring back recon photos when your plane is parked in Prague at the time of the supposed flight.
     
  17. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Where do I start?

    A German atomic bomb during WW II was simply not in the cards.

    Until about 1933, Germany was indisputably the world leader in nuclear research. A handful of German physicists had, in the 1920's developed quantum mechanics, and pushed cutting edge nuclear research to the point where the secrets of the atom, so necessary to the building of an atomic bomb, were about to be revealed. Brilliant students from all over the world flocked to Germany to study nuclear theory under masters like Einstein, Sommerfeld, Planck, Born, Pauli, Laue, Kramer, Sauter, and Heisenberg.

    Then in 1933, Hitler and his minions came to power and set about to fix all that. Hitler had a law passed in 1933 that decreed that Jewish professors and instructors could no longer teach in German universities. Since large numbers of German theoretical and practical physicists were Jewish, the study of physics in Germany began to decline as these talented scholars were dismissed and received lucrative offers of positions in British and American universities. Einstein was one of the first; he was lecturing in the US at the time and simply announced he had no intention of returning to a Germany run by the Nazis. Only a few German physicists like Sommerfeld, who was old and about to retire, and Heisenberg, decided to stay, but they found that even non-Jewish physicists were hounded by the Nazi's, and their areas of research restricted by stupid bureaucratic rules. The Nazi regime turned out to be very hostile and suspicious of all scientists, but especially those in fields in which Jewish scholars had been prominent.

    Heisenberg, though personally maligned and under suspicion by the SS, was eventually tapped to head up German atomic research, which due to the earlier Nazi purge of Jewish physicists got off to a late start. In the initial feasibility study, Heisenberg made a fundamental error in his calculations which went unnoticed, and caused the Germans to think that an atomic bomb would have to be extremely large, at least as big as a house, and weigh possibly as much as 100,000 pounds. Thus an atomic bomb would obviously be too large to deliver to a target by any foreseeable future aircraft or missile. The German military therefore decided to concentrate nuclear research on the generation of power. Germany wasn't even working towards a bomb after about 1942.

    As for the V-2, no, it wasn't developed to deliver an atomic bomb. The V-2's payload was only about 2,000 pounds and even the WW II American A-bombs weighed five times that weight.

    You are completely wrong about the American atomic bombs being the result of German "know-how". By 1940, thanks to Hitler, the German lead in nuclear physics had completely collapsed, and been taken over by American universities which by 1935 had the largest, most active, and best funded group of physics researchers in the world. This group of scholars were not, however, solely comprised of Americans; there were Italians, German, British, French, Hungarians, Russians, Danish, Belgian, and other nationalities participating. The study of physics had always been an international effort with findings shared, more or less freely, among the community. When Hitler came to power, his brutal acts against Jewish physicists caused Germany to become isolated from that process, so that Germany fell even further behind in the game.

    As for the U-boat carrying fissionable material, it seems unlikely that Germany would ship such a cargo anywhere if it really was close to an atomic bomb. Germany's second great problem in producing an atomic bomb was a lack of enough fissionable material to build one. The US had received most of the available high grade ore from the Belgian Congo when Belgium was overrun in 1940. In addition, Canada supplied additional fissionable material to the US during the war. Germany had no access to the Belgian Congo Uranium mines or any other reliable source of fissionable material. This is the same problem the Soviet Union had after the war, and a major reason it took them four years to explode an atomic bomb even though they had the stolen plans for one by the end of the war.

    If you really want to know about the unsuccessful German effort to produce an atomic bomb, I suggest you start with David Cassidy's "Beyond Uncertainty: Heisenberg, Quantum Physics, and The Bomb", Bellevue Literary Press, 2009.
     
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  18. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Bruce,
    I think the US also had some Uranium of it's own .
     
  19. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    The Manhattan Project got most of the millions of pounds of uranium oxide from the Great Bear Lake mines of Canada, we hadn't really expanded the Colorado Plateau find before war's end. We also continued to import the highest grade ore in the world from the Belgian Congo mines. Only one transport ship carrying that uranium ore was lost to U-boat attack in the entire war years. This supplimented the tons of Belgian ore which was purchased by the US, it had been stored on Staten Island by the Belgian government when war broke out.

    The Manhattan Project also received another vital ore from the north, flurospar (sp?), from New Foundland. This is necessary for the production of hexoflourine gas for use in the gaseous diffusion method of uranium enrichment. That was the only known deposit in the western hemisphere until post war when it was discovered in other areas.
     
  20. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Yes, some sources in the US were known. Uranium is actually about 40 times more prevalent in the earth's surface than silver.

    However, I don't believe the US utilized them heavily during WW II preferring to use foreign sources.

    "To ensure an adequate supply of uranium oxide, Colonel Nichols directed Stone and Webster to buy 350 tons from [ Eldorado ] to cover the project's needs for the year ahead [ beginning July 7, 1942 ].... Thanks to these measures, by the fall of 1942 [ uranium ] production ... from Eldorado's ore had increased sufficiently to supply the project's requirements...[ pp. 62-64 ]

    Ore procurement activities, which reached a high point in 1944 and then levelled off somewhat in early 1945, were concentrated in three major areas: Africa, Canada, and the United States. Project leaders were aware in 1943 that the wartime needs of the bomb program were likely to exhaust both the immediately available domestic and Canadian deposits, and the security implications of this situation led to a ... policy of using, to the greatest extent possible, ores from foreign sources.

    The most significant foreign source was the Belgian Congo.... All Canadian ore ... came from the Great Bear Lake area. [ p. 310 ]"


    From "Manhattan: The Army and The Atomic Bomb" by Vincent G. Jones,
    Center of Military History, US Army, Washington D.C. 1985
     

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