Orlando shooting

Yes and he was the first target because the terrorist knew a head of time. I'm speaking of conceal and carry just as this brave senior citizen had who saved the day.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dwrgvqlc8DA

The terrorist knew that no one inside was armed.

 

There are provisions for concealed carry permits that prohibit bringing weapons into certain types of businesses; especially those whose primary business is the selling and consumption of alcohol (bars, night clubs, casinos).

 

If he was "the first target", he made a piss poor job of it since the cop is still alive.

 

Seems slightly odd to me that they often focus so hard on the weapon used in these grim events.
China and other places have experienced a flowering of knife attacks, both lone nutters & organised groups, one of which left 29 innocents dead, with 143 more wounded.
I wonder if they have breathless reporters banging on about the sharpness of the knives, 'military style' hilts etc.?
I'm guessing they don't.

Maybe it's more illuminating or interesting to examine the motivation and mental state of the tool using the tool than stare at the tool itself.
Dunno really though. US gun debates and centuries of politics behind them are cock all to do with me.

 

The Orlando tool, who used a tool, apparently loved to be tooled...thinking, just like hollywood- there are a lot of closeted mechanics in islam.
Taliban use 'Honey Trap' boys to kill Afghan police-
https://www.yahoo.com/news/taliban-honey-trap-boys-kill-afghan-police-034032649.html?ref=gs

 

All of that is true, even Trump clarified that he meant private security, not drinking patrons packing heat. If you look up "Gun Nut" on Google, you'll probably find my picture, yet even I don't want guns in the hands of drinkers. Ever.

I've been criticized for pointing this out earlier in the thread, but this club had hired an off-duty cop to stand at the door, armed and ready. He ran away. I wish I knew his name, but he and his actions are being kept under wraps. I suspect most of us are ex-military and trained with firearms, and at least one member is a cop. Any of those people should know that at those ranges, a .223 isn't a particular advantage over a standard sidearm. You seek cover (a .223 doesn't penetrate for crap), draw and shoot for the torso. You're the defender, you have cover, you have the advantage. He's the attacker, heading for the door, in the open. Even if that cop had forced him to hide behind a vehicle or something for a few minutes, a dozen other cops would have arrived and shot him to pieces.

And now, it is slowly coming out that this shooter had a long history of making radical Islamic statements. He had been investigated by the FBI twice. His co-workers had complained to the security company of his angry tirades. One co-worker quit, fearing that this guy would target the place he worked. The company did NOTHING. I surmise that they feared a discrimination lawsuit if they fired him.

This is the strange world we live in now. If you see something, say something, but if you do you're a bigot.

 

Clarified...Or back-tracked.

Trump had said..."“If some of those wonderful people had guns strapped … right to their waist or right to their ankle,...”
Unless, your position is a driver, who would have their primary carry in an ankle holster???

No...Sorry...Schmucko was talking about all the Joe 6-packs packing heat.

Trump didn't back-track until after the NRA basically called him a flippin moron.

His name is Adam Gruler.

The going story is that he was dealing with an underage drinker, when he heard shots coming from inside the club. He then ran into the club and exchanged gunfire with Mateen.


Of course with all the gunfire, both incoming and outgoing...There has been a lot of speculation on the number of casualties due to "friendly fire."

That's not the problem at all...

The problem is separating signal from noise. Unfortunately, there is far more noise than signal.
An example: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/nyregion/01false.html?pagewanted=print

Others, reported Muslims using mechanical clickers to count passengers on NYC subways during certain times of the day. However, these mechanical clickers were "modern day" versions of Misbaha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misbaha
that they were using for prayers.

 

Not surprised, Trump is an idiot.

I'd like to see details on this. Why wasn't he at the front door? How many shots did he fire? How long before he ran away? I did some armed security as a government contractor at a missile site after I retired. That's quite a different thing than a nightclub, but there are some commonalities. There's one entrance, or should be and Gruler as the armed component should have been there. Nightclubs have bouncers (one was an ex-marine who saved dozens of lives by keeping a cool head and ushering people out a rear entrance). One of those unarmed bouncers should have dealt with a minor matter like an underage person. What more is there to it, except "Get Out!"

I get that, at least with the government investigations. I don't want to live in a society where people are sanctioned in any way without a court hearing and hard evidence. HOWEVER, if you have four employees going to management about threats, radical Islamic statements, etc, then maybe he should be fired, have his state license pulled, and be reported once again to the FBI - this time with four witnesses. They didn't do any of that, and now it turns out that the psych eval required for an armed security license was forged. The psychologist named in his employment records wasn't even practicing in that state when the evaluation was supposed to have been done.

I had to go through a very similar process that this company required, because that company (and mine) worked as federal contractors. I had recently retired, but my security clearance had to be done again from scratch. Complete criminal background check, complete credit check, interviews with just everybody I knew, psych evaluation - the works. If they had interviewed his ex-wife they would have learned that he frequently beat her (she's been very open about that), and that alone would have precluded him from his work and from buying or owning a firearm.

There's far too much fail here. Disagree if you like, but I think we have created a climate where people are afraid to sanction this particular minority group.

 

Here's how miserable the media coverage is on this:

First of all, no big city police police department carries a service "revolver." They typically carry a .40 which generally hold 12 rounds, with two spare mags (36 rounds). If not a .40, then a nine with typically a 17 round mag, along with two spare mags (50 or so rounds). The shooter had (reportedly) a Glock 17 which is NOT a machine pistol, along with a Sig MCX, a rifle shooting .223/5.56 rounds. I still think this cop, Gruler, should be ashamed for firing a few shots and running away.

The thing that bothers me even more is that 3 hour delay... OK, I'm going to be honest here. I'm not just bothered, I'm infuriated about that delay. And the reason is that in all my years in Alaska it infuriated me that native hunters generally used .223's for hunting deer and caribou. The blacktail deer are quite small, under 100 pounds generally, so a 62 grain hunting soft point with good shot placement was "enough" if you were careful. However, natives generally used a Ruger Mini 14 (it's just a "thing" with them) with FMJ rounds that just zipped right through the animal - a Mini 14 is essentially an "assault rifle" in function if not in form. If you didn't get a spine shot or something, the animal just began running and bled out far away. If there was snow on the ground you may find it, if not it's lost, a waste of meat and a slow death. Natives (I should say many natives, not all) use those on not only deer, but on much larger animals like caribou and even moose. You probably think I dislike Alaska Natives, but I don't. There's very little of that red/white friction that you find around some of the tribes in the lower 48. People of all races get along pretty good up there, but this one thing really angered me. They (many of them) are very callous about using inappropriate calibers and ammo for hunting. It violated every principle my dad taught me about respect for the animal you harvest. It is not humane or ethical in the European/American hunting tradition that I was raised in. In Alaska native culture, it's just not a big deal - another animal will be found shortly, and the one they wounded will feed the wolves and ravens.

I relate that because the media would have us believe that "assault rifles" are especially deadly, when in fact .223 civilian ammo is typically just lead filled full metal jacket rounds. They aren't designed to yaw or tumble in flesh like military issue ammo, and they don't. They are designed for punching holes in paper or ringing steel gongs They are far less deadly than any other centerfire rifle round on the shelf. If you aren't shot in the head, heart or a major artery with a .223, you are just in for slow internal bleeding and a lingering death just like those game animals that I saw run away after hits with .223 rounds by native friends and acquaintances.
There were 49 dead in that nightclub. 53 survived that three hour delay or escaped out the door with their wounds. I know damned well that when the autopsy reports show up, many or most of those dead will be shown to have had survivable wounds. Survivable, if care had been rendered promptly.

I can't seem to get past this piss-poor strategy used by the Orlando PD. This really, really, bothers me. It bothers me far more than any attack since 9/11. I mourn for those people who died waiting for relief. I have no faith at all that government at any level will see this as a lesson, a teachable moment, an opportunity to change strategies when future attacks unfold. And there will be more attacks, and they will happen more frequently as times goes by. This horrible strategy seems to be in a whitewash. That's a mistake. It should be analyzed carefully, every mistake exposed and used to teach police departments across the country. This is new to our police, unknown ground. There has been training, but if this event is an example of the new strategy then it needs a lot of work.

As for Mateen, screw him. I only wish he'd suffered a far more painful death.

An interesting related story is Mateen's ex-wife, Sitora Yusufy. Google her. She was a strict Muslim, but was so traumatized by her years with Mateen that she now has renounced Islam and joined a new age group that promotes peace, love and a green lifestyle. She's also beautiful, and likely a Bernie Sanders supporter, but I'll forgive her for that.

 

Those still holding those weapons will face a hefty fine if discovered...I think you'll find most will surrender them as they don't use them often enough to offset the fine, if they miss the amnesty (which will be held) - Those left will probably bury the bastards...
All prohibition is really about reducing the uptake not stopping it...and it worked with alcohol and it works with drugs - Supply goes down (with a danger aspect) - prices go up - consumption drops (due to the increase in price)....simple.
Many people wont have a firearm available when in an argument, not one available when they want to kill themselves, not one available when they want to kill others then themselves, thieves wont find them in the usual spots...only those who plan and really want them will get them.
Only those sportsmen who use semi-auto will be affected and even then you can get exemptions if its truly a sport rifle...That rifle is registered to an owner (there are few around) so if its used in a crime the owner will be liable.
Its about firearms being in the hands of those who NEED them not WANT them...

 

Guns are dumb...I don't know why anyone really needs one.

 

I have a feeling you're being facetious...but I agree, the logic is hard to beat.

 

Guns are absolutely useless until your life is on the line.

 

Guns are last resort...even when your life is on the line.
My life has been on the line a few times...Bondi beach, thought I was going to drown...Canberra fires, thought I was going to burn, Car crash in Tasmania...guns wouldn't have helped me.
If I lived in a place where the likelihood of someone brandishing a gun at me was high...id move.