P-38, 2nd best US plane?

If we accept the argument that the Mustang was the best U.S. fighter, which one was 2nd best? I never considered the 38 til recently. I have uncovered a couple of interesting articles. One is here below. I figured the Hellcat was 2nd best as it made more aces than any U.S. plane, & had a 19 to one victory ratio over the Zero compared to 11 to one for the Corsair. Any thoughts anyone?


WW2 mag.
Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?

Steinhoff: The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. That would be the one, although the P-51 [Mustang] was deadly because of the long range, and it could cover any air base in Europe. This made things difficult, especially later when flying the jets.

 

what theater of ops ?

P-47 must be included, then you have of course the Pacific fighters which I have nothing on......

 

Certainly in the European Theatre I would have suggested the P-47 as second-best to the Mustang.

Freeman in 'The Mighty Eighth' deals with the subject in some detail - the P-38 was brilliantly effective below 18,000ft but suffered at higher altitudes. It also had excellent range with drop-tanks.

With escort missions being flown at heights up to 33,000ft the P-38 could not contend with the later 109s or the 190 and this factor led to its gradual replacement by the P-47.

 

The P-47 was evidently a stop gap till the P-51 could prove itslef though it had done so by late December 43 in the 354th fg. 8th AF P-47's as the war progressed were sent over to the 9th AF for their ground attack duties and although the 354th lost their P-51's and flew the "hated" P-47 in the fall/winter of 44 they were reunited with their 'mounts' in Janusry/February 45 and continued to score heavily being the top scoring ETO fighter group in the air. The P-47 was armed accordingly and was a definate kick butt a/c earning the dreaded name "jabo".

E ~

 

The 47 also had highest losses than any other in the 10 months from the Normandy landings til VE day.

The early 38's that appeared in Med were not as good as the J model. Heinz Bar said the 38 was east meat, but he flew in Med theater, so his experience could be from encountering the early ones. I'll dig up the other 38 article.

Pacific fighters. Again the Hellcat is my choice as Saburo Sakai said it was the only plane that could follow the Zero through any aireal maneuver.

 

Well was not aware of poor altitude performance of 38. Knocks it out of contention I suppose. That leaves the 47 & Hellcat. I would go with the Hellcat. Don't know what its altitude performance was, but certainly more maneuverable than the 47. 47 was a bit faster though. Here is the other 38 article. I think for low & med altitude it was better than previously thought by some.


I wonder if Mr. Richardson would care to comment on two manoevers I have heard could be done in the P 38.

First one: If being persued by any of the German single engine fighters, a P 38 could enter into a steep climbing and hard turning turn to the right. As the Lightning pilot had no P factor to contend with, his only right rudder input would be that normally required to counter the regular induced aileron drag, and to keep "the ball" centered (i.e. turn co-ordinated). The following fighter, fighting not only to keep his own turn co-ordinated, but also attempting to counter the ever increasing P factor (not to mention torque) would eventually run out of right rudder, and fall off to the left.

This then could lead to manoever two: The P 38 pilot, now approaching its own stall speed, could chop the right engine, apply full right rudder, and effectively complete a modified "hammer head" skidding turn without having to bank around. The persuing fighter would present a vulnerable low speed target.

I understand the aerodynamics of the above referenced manoevers, but were they, in actual combat, ever used?

Stan the Man...its show time!

Woodrow

Tom, re Woodwards questions.

Once established in a hard turn in either direction there was no need for aileron, thus no induced drag from the ailerons. plenty of pull on the elevator was necessary in a steeply banked turn. Lotsa horsepower helped too! The P-38 could out-turn all Bf-109 models we encountered over Europe, and out-climb 'em too. All except the FW190 Dora. The Fowler flaps on the Lightning gave us a 'combat position' for the flaps, increasing wing area, hence more lift. Of course there was induced drag when using the combat flap position, but the high horsepower output of the Allisons was used effectively to overcome the slight increase in drag.

I didn't rely on maneuver #2. Applying full rudder with high horsepower on one engine while reducing the remaining engine power to idle resulted in a snaproll to remember. I only did that once to see what would happen. That's why I only did that once.

Please remind Woodward that I am not now, nor was I ever, an aerodynamicist We learned from our maneuvers, and practiced suggestions from the other P-38 pilots.

I hope this helps, Tom....

stan r

 

Chrome remember what the P-47's of the 9th AF were ordered to do in Normandie. bomb the crap out of everything but in so doing they reeived the attention of ground Fla- 2cm and 3.7cm weapons and suffered, but I would call the 9th AF dive bomb attacks successful with the amount of rolling stock they destroyed.

I have never heard any of the 1945 P-38 units encounter any Dora's ? whereabouts would this have taken place, as I have the listings of the Luftwaffe units so equipped............

Erich ~

 

Yes, more 47's were lost to ground fire than any thing else, Mustangs too. Pips Prillers last victory was a P-38 J. He flew a D-13. might be a good place to look.

P.S. I don't believe the 38 could outclimb a G-10, certainly not a K-4.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm that would be northern Germany so no 15th AF boyz that far upwards. would be a 9th AF a/c. will have to check further. you sure he flew a D-13 since they were quite a rarity

 

Prillers last kill was a P-51 making it his 101st victory. His last P-38 kill was in June of 44 and it was well before the Stab received the Dora.

hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

You may be right on the 38 J. My goof. He did fly the D-13 though. I remember his quote; I felt very confident in this mount.

 

Here's am interesting comment from Krupinski on the D 190.


" I only flew the late model of the FW 190, what we called the "long-nose", for about a month , in February 1945. It was a marvelous aircraft, I must say, but if you had over 1000 missions on a 109, you didn t like the 190 too much. There were a lot of German pilots who flew the 190 from the very beginning who very much favored it over the 109, but personally I didn t like it too much. In 1944, the 190s normally attacked the American bombers, and were much better at it than the 109s because they had a radial engine that was very good protection against the rear gunners of the bombers."

Luftwaffe General Walter Krupinski

 

The Count may have been talking in regard to the Fw 190A-8 whcih had a heavier armament than the Dora. the Dora was supposed to have been used for high altitude work against the P-51 but time and again the Geramn pilots were out flown and out numbered.......

 

Um, the name longnose is slang for the Dora.

 

yes I know that but what I am trying to say is that the heavier A-8's were used cheifly agasint the Allied bomber formations and not the D-9 if possible

 

I see.

 

Hey Chrome, if I get lucky at the lottery I will buy you this "P-38" for Christmas. (Does not say if it ever flew before )

http://volition.chooseyouritem.com/airplanes/files/7500/7513.html

 

Well, here is what Stan who flew the 38 in Europe had to say about altitude & the 38. I'm gonna have to study it a bit more, as 2 different views have been presented, & I can't back up either of em.


Not to worry about trying my patience when talking about the P-38.

Steve's wrong about the high altitude performance of the P-38 against the 109s and 190s. The 190Dora was a formidable opponent at any altitude, but we managed to prang a few of 'em.

stan r

 

152. Yah, I'll put that on my list for sure.

 

Chrome ok let's get back to Stan first. he flew the P-38 obviously in 1945 but with what fighter group/Air Force unit and where did these claims of Doras take place if he knows ? something is all wrong about this picture to me..........

v/r

Erich